Samer Hanini of Hanini Group | Peoples Bank Building in Passaic, NJ | Preserving History

Transcript

[00:00:00] Atif Qadir: Great. Let's get this party started. Uh, so my name is Atif Qadir and this is conversation. At Michael Graves, uh, in this series, we'll hear the stories of American buildings from the perspective of the architects and developers who are constructing them. They'll talk about the process and the product on a deeply personal highlighting, the teamwork, integrity, ingenuity, empathy and commitment that's necessary to produce these works of art gracing, the skylines of our cities and towns.

[00:00:37] Our very first guest in this series is Mattias Hoit, founder and partner of the architecture firm. He'll be talking about 25 Kent. His recently completed commercial building on the Williamsburg Waterfront in Brooklyn. It totals 500,000 square feet divided between office light, manufacturing and retail.

[00:00:56] It includes 1.8 acres of open space and for you dog owners, a pop up, puppy spa, and camp. The owners of the project are Heritage Equity Partners and Rubenstein Partners. Mattias, thank you so much for being

[00:01:11] Matthias Hollwich: here with us. Thank you for having.

[00:01:14] Atif Qadir: So we are going to take it way, way back. Before 25 camp, you started your firm in 1999.

[00:01:21] After having worked for Rem Cool House for five years, what was going through your mind and your heart in making that decision to

[00:01:28] start

[00:01:28] Matthias Hollwich: your own firm? It was actually a small little gap between actually leaving, uh, Orme. Um, because after having worked for such a master, uh, I realized that I needed to first have a.

[00:01:43] Uh, because just going directly out of his office onto my own would mean that I would just try to do what he did, but maybe a little bit different. Sure. And, uh, what I did actually in the interim, uh, I started teaching at ET h in Zurich. Uh, and then I started something, um, more internet based. It was actually called Attacked Electronic Architectural Studio.

[00:02:05] It was a dot. Bubble in 2001, and

[00:02:08] Atif Qadir: was the idea that you would be producing designs for clients from all over the world without having to

[00:02:12] Matthias Hollwich: be near them? It was actually interesting that, uh, we created technology that, uh, was, um, uh, the translator between architects with their drawings and, uh, needs from private clients Okay.

[00:02:25] For private homes. So you could actually, on a parametric design engine, how we called it, you could customize your own home based on drawings from a. Okay. So it was really like a, a, it was a venture. It was still architectural, but it was also a kind of a whole different business model that we tested at that time.

[00:02:43] And then, uh, after that, uh, slowly but truly, uh, through like a little bit, uh, uh, uh, pause in, uh, Amsterdam. I came now 14 years ago, uh, to America. And that's when the company. So based on

[00:02:56] Atif Qadir: that unusual start, I shouldn't really be surprised about the way that you describe your firm. So you describe Hawkin as a collection of design, construction and communication specialist led by an architect and tech entrepreneur, and that Hawkin is a new kind of architecture firm.

[00:03:12] How did you put those words together and, and make that decision to call your firm in?

[00:03:17] Matthias Hollwich: So the firm really started first with just being experimental and not having a theory. Sure. Uh, and really just wrapping any kind of opportunity and just exploring. And, uh, there were like popups, uh, that happened with, uh, mini Cooper and there were little installations and apartments, and the projects got bigger and bigger.

[00:03:39] But, uh, what was always interesting then by reflecting on what was done, Was that we never really followed just a typical footstep of what you expect from an architect as a pure designer. There was always a different sensibility either way, that architecture wanted to become a communication tool or it was, uh, a support system for a new venture.

[00:04:01] Uh, so all of these things over time, uh, really build up so that we could make that statement, uh, today. Sure.

[00:04:08] Atif Qadir: So 25. Kent started with Toby Moskovitz, the owner of Heritage Equity Partner. We both know her well. Tell us how that relationship started.

[00:04:19] Matthias Hollwich: So one day, uh, we got a call in the office and, uh, basically, uh, the person asked, I would like to come by and I may have a big project for you.

[00:04:29] Uh, let's talk. I'd like, of course, small firm just won the young architects program of modern PS one. And so we were kind of in the news and that. Are you gonna do it better? And I looked at these, uh, plants. I was like, oh my God, yes, they're horrible. So thank God they were really bad. Sure. Uh, but we were like, yeah.

[00:04:50] So, because the bar was set really low, so the bar was very, very low. Good. But then the amazing thing is, Toby is actually not a developer, now she's one, but at that time she was still kind of a tech investor out of Israel. Came to New York, started with real estate and just really knew that something is changing right now in the industry.

[00:05:10] And what she wanted is a building that is really about, uh, the future. But rooted in the DNA of where it's from, which is Brooklyn. Sure. Uh, so she took, uh, me basically on a tour and we walked through Brooklyn and she showed me all the things that she thought were interesting and were part of what makes Brooklyn so special, uh, where Vice Media moved in.

[00:05:34] Uh, you also had Amazon, uh, just, uh, rented some, uh, studio spaces for photo shoots and so on. So well, like all of these interesting. She all knew about it, uh, and basically asked us, uh, to start to look into a design that divides out of, uh, the future of real estate in terms of an office building, but also is very true to its locality, which is Brooklyn.

[00:05:59] And then, uh, yeah. What we like to do is not us as architects coming. This is great vision. Sure. Actually come up with many different visions and engage with the client and have workshop. And then I still remember, uh, it was an evening, it was slightly snowing. She came in with a kit, uh, and we had multiple designs.

[00:06:17] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we had multiple designs on, on the table. And then we started sketching together. Uh, and very quickly, the one scheme that became the forefront runner, uh, was an idea about taking warehouses, just stacking them on top of each other, uh, and having kind of an informality, but also a very strong impression or an expression is a building.

[00:06:40] Uh, and that kind of one from the first day on, uh, where we had that kind of workshop, uh, and then a very long story of like youli and we zoning and everything happened, uh, until this notes built.

[00:06:51] Atif Qadir: Sure. So it sounds like the warehouse aesthetic of Williamsburg, um, was something that inspired your design.

[00:06:57] Were there any other things, for example, uh, the beautiful views of the, of the Manhattan skyline or oddly dressed hipsters, anything else? Yeah,

[00:07:05] Matthias Hollwich: so there's something, uh, let's say in my design dna, there's always something social. I think architecture has an incredible responsibility to its people. And, um, what we wanted to do is by actually creating a big, uh, we call, it was like a punch through the building that split the core and open the building to the community with a public access.

[00:07:27] That is something that actually really determined the form and the DNA of the building. Uh, I think that is a very, very big influence, but you can see that on every one of the projects, uh, that kind of, uh, I have done in, in my past. Um, the other element is, um, really of course the cut and the split of the building with public plazas that are opening up, but that was also, uh, you have to give credit to the city.

[00:07:55] The building department. They asked actually for more public access, which we love to incorporate into the design. But that was really a collaboration later on, also during the Yuli process.

[00:08:05] Atif Qadir: Great. So to take it a step back, the eventual design that you chose was an eight story building. Uh, with two wings, uh, 15 foot ceiling heights shaped like a pyramid, cigarette style with the ground floor, pedestrian avenue underneath.

[00:08:20] Mm-hmm. Uh, given that there were certain designs that the developer didn't want, what were the designs that you passed on, on the way to getting to this one?

[00:08:29] Matthias Hollwich: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, um, it was actually not so iterative because we had just a couple of alternatives. Okay. And the one was, uh, the, the big box, uh, floating on stills.

[00:08:41] And the next one is maybe two buildings. I, I don't even remember because we run through so many different design iterations. Um, but, uh, it became very logical that this one was the one for that place. Um, because as soon we had the first renderings done and the first massing, you just felt. It, it just fit and it wanted to be there.

[00:09:01] And that is actually for me, the art, uh, and also the future of architecture that, uh, you don't do any kind of grand vision anymore in terms of a organization and an aesthetic that you plop into different cities. Um, you actually have to look into what the city already offers and carve out these kind of qualities and intensify them in your projects.

[00:09:23] And with that, you create something that makes the city look better and not worse when you're building a st.

[00:09:29] Atif Qadir: So in order to, in order to realize a lot of those, Uh, those design intents that you had, you needed to have the square footage to actually build on this site. So you had mentioned earlier that, uh, there was, uh, a limited f a r on the site of floor area ratio.

[00:09:45] Uh, so in its original state, before it was rezoned, it was an f a r of two, which means, uh, at. Two multiple of the lot area. So eventually what was built was a five F A R. How did that come to be? What was that process like? Yeah,

[00:10:00] Matthias Hollwich: so the, that is kind of the testament to an incredible collaboration. First of our, first of all, visionary developer like Toby Moscovitch and uh, Michael, her business partner.

[00:10:12] Who basically knew she wants much more mass, uh, which was important for the site, but also of course for the financial balance sheet. Uh, for the development itself. So

[00:10:22] Atif Qadir: in order to have more square foot to rent basically.

[00:10:24] Matthias Hollwich: Absolutely. And, uh, for the effort of planning and of course the site cost and construction costs and so on.

[00:10:31] So there are at some point, like a magic number that you would like to achieve, and she felt the five f a r is where the journey should go. But then, uh, the interesting part was that she didn't go to the city and just ask for more area. She went to the city with our designs and excited them about the potential of the site.

[00:10:51] And that is what I feel also is something very, um, kind of interesting for. Future negotiations with the city. Don't just go there and say like, Hey, we need more mass. Show what you offer for the additional density and excite people around it. Uh, and that's what she basically did with the collaboration with the city and the neighborhood.

[00:11:14] Uh, there was an mandate to bring in also, uh, light manufacturing into the building. Sure. The public plaza, all of these kind of things played, uh, a role in it. Uh, but that was really like, uh, the collaboration between the planning and of course the development itself.

[00:11:29] Atif Qadir: So would it be correct to say then, it wasn't necessarily just about the thoughtfulness, about the design, it was also.

[00:11:36] Smart strategy and how to actually get it executed in a, in a public environment like that.

[00:11:40] Matthias Hollwich: Absolutely. And I think, uh, it becomes more and more important that they integrate actually the, uh, the community in your planning. Uh, we just being asked actually in Berlin right now about a large area, which is called r a w, uh, which is like totally, like, it's not even hipster.

[00:11:57] It's like out. Who live there with like in their own kind of community. It's very anti-development, and our client has done some schemes and it's all being rejected, and now they're asking us to come up with an idea that emotionally picks up people with the potential of density that gives something to the community.

[00:12:19] And it's not just ab abusive as a development. And that's what Toby Moscow, which has done with us, and the design on 25, Ken, it feels like it gives something to the community. It's not a loss that you lost one warehouse. You actually got a cool building with eight warehouses on top of each other. And it's actually much better now because before it was a single block, just unaccessible, and now we have this public space in between and you have also cool cafes, restaurants and so on.

[00:12:47] So that's kind of what, um, uh, what I feel it's, it's kind of the magic behind it.

[00:12:51] Atif Qadir: So the eventual end result of those public amenities were what you described. What were some of the original community responses and the pushback? Cause I'm sure there was a lot of pushback about this design. Mm-hmm.

[00:13:04] Matthias Hollwich: There were actually not too many pushbacks Uh Oh, aggressive.

[00:13:07] Yeah. Because there was already a story. We had these visuals and, um, it was very well curated in terms of just informing people very early, informally than more formally, uh, so that nobody has a bad. Uh, and then I think the most important thing is that you built exactly what we promised. Sure. And that's what Toby did, and now we're doing the next one with

[00:13:29] Atif Qadir: her.

[00:13:30] So in the design, uh, and what you've described, the design so far, you've talked about. The physical connectivity, but let's also talk about the visual connectivity. So you chose to have curtain wall, curtain wall on the east and west facades that face the river in Williamsburg and punched windows on the north south facades.

[00:13:47] Could you talk about, uh, how you went through the decision of the materials that you used on the, the facade of the building? Mm-hmm.

[00:13:54] Matthias Hollwich: Um, yeah, so by having done the tours with Toby through the whole neighborhood, seeing all the warehouses and the beautiful textured bricks, that was immediately the intuition to use these materials for the majority of the

[00:14:06] Atif Qadir: building.

[00:14:07] And you used a multicolored bricks throughout. There's a certain variety

[00:14:10] Matthias Hollwich: of the color. Exactly. So you, you want to, I mean, it feels like as if it has been there and a little bit age, but it also presents it as something cont um, contemporary. Uh, but then if you would do that for the whole building, then suddenly it becomes unclear.

[00:14:27] Uh, when it was really built. So that's just also why we cut it open, almost like, like a slice, uh, with the super curtain wall where you can really look deep into the building and you see all the kind of activities of people expressed in the facade. Uh, and that is so important. Also, you want to make.

[00:14:45] Buildings speak to the audience on the outside and through the people in the inside, and this is what we like to do, exposing sometimes these kind of activities which happen at these two facades. And

[00:14:56] Atif Qadir: also bringing natural light to the centers of these floor plates, which isn't that common in office buildings.

[00:15:00] Matthias Hollwich: Exactly. And um, It feels almost as if 25 Kent is inspired also by European conditions. Okay? Because it's not a center core, uh, with just your 42 feet lease span. Uh, it has a split core with a variation of different, uh, lease depth. Uh, in some areas you have actually three sides of windows, uh, which is also much more European.

[00:15:23] We're doing right now, project in Munich, and you see that there's a similarity in some of the DNAs.

[00:15:28] Atif Qadir: So would you say then the design decisions that you made help inform some of the, uh, the intent of the building from the marketing perspective? So for example, uh, in the marketing materials, words like share, cross pollinate, trading ideas, breakthroughs, aha moments, all appear.

[00:15:45] Uh, do you feel that the design helps support all of those?

[00:15:49] Matthias Hollwich: Yeah. So I think, uh, by actually going away from the typical dimensions and also the typical, uh, organization, uh, we turned an office building into an urban campus. Okay. And that already, uh, builds basically a lot of the kind of share communication and the more collective, uh, kind of idea as, as a building.

[00:16:11] But you normally have to work so hard when you have a typical center core, uh, center building. Uh, because then it's really, uh, I think it's administration and organization. You have to, to do it. Uh, we did it just physically. Uh, and that's already the beginning of, uh, that kind of, uh, communal kind of.

[00:16:31] Atif Qadir: And by centor you're referring to stairs and elevators in the center, everything else around it.

[00:16:34] Exactly. Got it. Yeah. So all of this sounds like a big departure from the way that office buildings are traditionally conceived. Do you imagine that there would be hesitation or confusion amongst, uh, the actual office workers that would be in this environment?

[00:16:49] Matthias Hollwich: I think the confusion is still a lot with, uh, leasing agents.

[00:16:53] Sure. Right. Because they're used to the spec sheets and this building doesn't comply to it. Um, but it's so fascinating. Um, actually in spring I was at ULI in Nashville and we saw a old building, which was a, um, what was it? Not even like a factory. It was very weird with a. Strange spaces that was about to be renovated and next to it they were planning to build a very beautiful new high-tech office.

[00:17:21] And, uh, the people who were developing were basically saying like, look, it's kind of funny that we are gonna make so much more money per square foot on the alt building because it's weird, it's unusual. This is what people want. And our new office building going to, It's gonna be leased nicely, um, but it's less valuable.

[00:17:40] So the Unlogical existing building has more value today than the rational high-tech building. And this is for me, the lesson. Now, uh, we have to break with all the different rules. What we have learned before, um, to create something that is emotional, uh, that becomes unforgettable for people. Uh, and it becomes something for the future of our industries, which is all about creativity, connectivity, innovation.

[00:18:08] And you cannot do that in a typical box anymore. Okay? And. Actually to bring it back to some of the one thing which I still remember, I liked so vividly with Koha. Uh, we worked on a office building for Universal in la. And we had a problem about executive floor to the regular floor, to the lobby, uh, parking and offices again, and then the basement.

[00:18:32] And, uh, we had to coordinate the grid to make it efficient. And there was a executive architect and they worked on the grid for a couple of days. Uh, and then they had a big presentation to REM at the time, and they were like, well, we combined all the grids and we found out the perfect grid is four foot.

[00:18:49] And then REM lit up was like, great, now we know which grid we are not going to use. And it was fine. It was like, yes. Incredible story. And uh, and I think, uh, 25 Kent is doing exactly that. It's doing everything wrong. What normally somebody would tell you to do? Which might

[00:19:07] Atif Qadir: actually speak more intuitively to people

[00:19:09] Matthias Hollwich: then.

[00:19:09] Yeah. And also, uh, you see it also in the Hertz building. For example, when, uh, sir Foster created the angled, um, uh, facade on the corners, all the leasing agents were like, no, no, no, this is wrong because you need the corner exposed, and this is where the executives corners sit. Uh, nobody gonna like to sit on the angled facade.

[00:19:28] Yeah. This are now the most desired places because it's different. It's special, it's, it's unusual. Our whole society is looking for individuality, for the self-expression, and you cannot do it in a generic office building anymore.

[00:19:44] Atif Qadir: So the design timeline for 25 Kent was almost 10 years and. Plus or minus eight ears, like a little faster.

[00:19:51] Seven. So two of the core aspects of what you've described, uh, in your design strategy is open office and co-working. So over the past year, there's been an avalanche of negative opinions about both of those. In those applicability, the applicability of either of them. To the future of office, what are your thoughts about, uh, open office and, and co-working?

[00:20:16] Matthias Hollwich: I think 25 Ken is actually something different. Uh, you can call it a flex asset. The building is so sturdy and it's so dimensioned beyond the 14 feet floor to floor. It's actually 15 eight, uh, and uh, the big columns and the lease span. You can do anything. Right. Um, you can, you can, we just had, uh, beyond the streets, uh, a big art exhibition.

[00:20:42] Sure. So it turned into a museum. Right now you have also smorgasburg moving in. It's gonna be a big open market. So it's actually much more important now to think about buildings as assets for the future that are convertible into all kind of different things. And we are actually exploring right now, um, in Germany.

[00:21:01] Uh, into typologies where you can switch a office building into an apartment, into a hotel. And we are also looking into parking, turning into office, turning into hotel, and actually building already the facades with the logic of light and air for all the different asset classes. Because who knows, right?

[00:21:20] Who knows if you still need all of these offices in 10 years, uh, and maybe our apartment topology gonna turn much more into co-living or into hotels, or they're gonna turn back into apartment. We don't know anymore. So we have to futureproof our buildings through kind of steadiness and flexibility. But that doesn't mean that they need to become generic.

[00:21:41] They just need to become so, um, independent that they can live with these different topologies.

[00:21:49] Atif Qadir: So the idea being that, It's not just about buildings that have mixed uses, um, at one given time. It's about the ability for the building to change over time as well, to have multiple uses

[00:21:59] Matthias Hollwich: and need to look into warehouses.

[00:22:01] They change, right? Sure. And they became from, um, logistics suddenly into offices and then into apartments. Uh, so that is for me, much more the future than these kind of very typical, uh, optimized, uh, single typologies that are totally outdated. So let's talk

[00:22:18] Atif Qadir: about the team that was necessary in order to execute on this design.

[00:22:22] So your team included Robert May, Brad Engelman, Andrew McBride, Adam Hostettler, Valenti, Valentina, Milly, Gregory nacada, and Matthew Hoffman. I apologize if I missed anybody, but how did you more, I'm sure there were many more. Um, how did you organize your team?

[00:22:38] Matthias Hollwich: So for the team, I mean, the office was also evolving, which is interesting.

[00:22:43] Uh, and, but what became more and more important for us is that, um, uh, there's always like one portion of a team that's incredible discipline to always understand everything, technical, uh, anything that our standards so that we know what we have to break. Yeah. Uh, and then there's another team who can just play.

[00:23:04] Lee by not knowing these kind of things. And then at some point we bring them together and it's very painful. And that's kind of the magic between the creative and the rational that you can see in every one of our buildings. Uh, and um, and you see then people in the team. To find a place, or sometimes also to switch the places.

[00:23:23] Uh, but there's some people who just stick in the office. Many of them have moved on and actually having their own careers. Uh, and that's actually exciting to see also people to grow beyond our firm. Uh, but then credit to Robert May, uh, he was actually my student, uh, many years ago. Uh, he came to, uh, Hawkin as his first job.

[00:23:43] And, uh, he's, uh, since he's there ever since, he's still there. Never left. And he probably has touched, uh, every one of our buildings, uh, since he's in the office. And, um, he basically acts as kind of a lead designer and design director on many of these projects. So

[00:23:58] Atif Qadir: from, I think that's a testament to the, the quality of your firm and its focus on, uh, developing talent.

[00:24:04] But it sounds like the, the values that you have are about having the design be something that's not necessarily owned by you, the principle, but something much broader, which is. Uh, I think relatively unusual in our industry. Could you talk about some of more of the values that you, uh, you focus on when, when leading and developing teams?

[00:24:24] Matthias Hollwich: Yeah. I think it goes, uh, within our team, but also even beyond the team. Uh, I think we are one of the very few firms who actually come to the first meeting with 10 different schemes and, uh, drawings. And then we give our client Sharpies and say like, by the way, Anything you want to change or what you want to do different, just draw it up and show us and tell us.

[00:24:46] And even at the University of Pennsylvania where we did the Pennovation Center, which is, uh, innovation Center, um, it's. It used to be at least one of the most conservative real estate departments, uh, on the planet, I would say. And we served a Red Bull and then put all of these drawings, 10 of the different schemes on the wall and asked everyone to draw and give us ideas.

[00:25:09] And then we gave them dots and everyone gave us like red dots and green dots. And, uh, with that, it was an incredible experience where you learn so quickly from your client wh where they think, uh, the journey could go. You empower them to become co-designers, and in the end you actually don't know anymore who created it.

[00:25:29] Uh, but it's also with this, it's almost like rapid prototyping, more product ideas, um, or let's say re like feedback research as a design process. And we do that within our team internally and we do that also with our clients. And it's an awesome experience. We let down the guards and, uh, you figure out what's the best for a project.

[00:25:51] Atif Qadir: And it sounds like you would've created allies amongst your, uh, client in doing that because, uh, those people that took the Sharpie and those red dots and now have ownership for that, that design, that they, they helped to

[00:26:03] Matthias Hollwich: evolve. Absolutely. And at Pennan, uh, the funnest part was really at the toughest moments when you do value engineering.

[00:26:12] Uh, everyone was behind the design and even our client could. Their own questions. They were like, no, we have to save some money here and there. It does. Yeah. Uh, but they were like, no, we know what you want. This one we cannot touch here. We can touch. Uh, and then, uh, and, and then even like moments where there was like one design element, which was an existing.

[00:26:32] State tower, um, on top of the roof. For us, it was very important. It goes away and, and por the head of real estate, uh, said basically like, no, we have to save the $30,000. It stays and I normality is gonna be painful. Uh, and, uh, I accepted it for like 10 minutes and then when I had a chance, I readdressed it again.

[00:26:53] Got it. Uh, I actually offered $15,000 of my own money to take it down if, uh, and por would've matched it. And I never have seen her speechless. Uh, but she rebooted after one minute and she took it down. She paid for it, but, uh, I owed her for the rest of my life. That really, um, but that's kind of the, like the, the relationship you built with your client when you do this kind of open workshops, this

[00:27:16] Atif Qadir: interactive process.

[00:27:17] So besides your own internal team, there's a, a co-design partner, uh, Gensler. Could you talk about how that relationship.

[00:27:26] Matthias Hollwich: Yeah. So what we typically do, uh, which is extremely successful, um, normally architects, what they tend to do is schematic design, then design development. And then as a design architect, you hand over your drawings and then somebody else.

[00:27:41] That's the Strongs, the architect of record model. Exactly. Um, what we like to do, we like to bring the architect of record or the local partner very, very really early into the design so that they already have the emotional connection. We also empower them to, of course, become co-signers with us, and it's a very, very smooth transition.

[00:28:00] For 25 Kent, uh, it was a little bit different because we started as design architects and then Gensler took over. Uh, and then they basically, uh, doing, uh, design development developed the project further. Uh, the beauty was that our design was basically done, and it's a, when you think about it from the principles, it's a very, very simple building.

[00:28:24] So they were able to execute on our vision. Perfectly, uh, until the very end. Even that we were not very involved in the later phases, which now for every other project, and we were very young firm at that time, uh, for any other project. Now we have more control later. Uh, but in this case it worked out perfectly because they could execute on our vision so clearly.

[00:28:47] So

[00:28:47] Atif Qadir: would you say that the integrity of your original. Uh, remained

[00:28:51] Matthias Hollwich: throughout. Yes. There's one detail, which I will not tell you what it is. Do they

[00:28:56] Atif Qadir: perhaps do the light

[00:28:57] Matthias Hollwich: fixtures? No. Something, uh, yeah, maybe two. I did my homework. You can tell there's one more detail where my let, every time I pass through the building I cringe and I'm like, but it.

[00:29:13] Atif Qadir: You'll be zen about that.

[00:29:14] Matthias Hollwich: And then what that one be? Okay. I made my piece. And also just for the records, um, when clients later on change things on the building, I'm fine with it because, uh, buildings have to have the life on their own. Sure. And I think, uh, the real authorship is a and uh, the people who are using it.

[00:29:32] Great.

[00:29:32] Atif Qadir: Mm-hmm. So, conversations at Michael Graves is hosted by Michael Graves architecture and. A world renowned firm that has been serving clients worldwide for 55 years from their offices in Princeton, New Jersey, New York City, and Washington dc. They provide planning, architecture, interior design, and graphic design services for many different building types, from hotels and resorts to office buildings, cultural and educational.

[00:29:59] Housing, healthcare and civic structures all are part of their repertoire with hundreds of awards for design excellence. It's obvious that they care deeply about their profession and are keen to share their ideas widely.

[00:30:14] So we'll switch over more to the business side. When I spoke to Mary Gil Martin recently about Brooklyn, she explained about how difficult it is to get an office tenant in Manhattan to cross the bridge. Um, besides 25 Kent, there's Dock 72 by Boston Properties and rooted nearby. Who do you think is going to tenant.

[00:30:35] These outer borough office buildings. And where are they coming, if not from Manhattan?

[00:30:40] Matthias Hollwich: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So the, basically the, the base premise is that most people live in Brooklyn, who are the hipsters, the creatives, and, uh, the innovators. And you should go where the people are. Uh, and I think that is what a lot of companies still are hesitant about, uh, because they think more about the image of Manhattan.

[00:31:04] They may think more about their clients who they need to basically serve in their buildings and they just hop into the plane. They know where the Uber goes. And Manhattan, it's an easy choice. Uh, but, uh, Everywhere right now, uh, the movements are, are going to, it's towards serving the people who work for you because that is the value that you have in your company.

[00:31:28] The human capital. The human capital. And, uh, by understanding that the human capital is right now in Williamsburg, in Bushwick, in Brooklyn, or now also Queens and the Bronx. Right. It's happening right now. And that is, oh, there are other outer

[00:31:43] Atif Qadir: boroughs besides,

[00:31:44] Matthias Hollwich: oh goodness. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's cooking, it's happening.

[00:31:47] Um, that is where now the investments have to happen from these firms and, uh, it's just a matter of time now that they're gonna understand and really jump over over the river.

[00:31:57] Atif Qadir: So it sounds like you think that that's not too big of a, of a distance across. Eventually Manhattan tenants will come because the realization of.

[00:32:05] The talent. They want to, they want to attract and

[00:32:07] Matthias Hollwich: retain. Yeah. And they have seen it already with all, for example, the hotels are popping up left and right. And my clients now always asking me, by the way, where should I stay when they come from Germany? Sure. And I'm always like, okay, you have like a couple of cool hotels in, in Manhattan and uh, here a couple of cool ones right now in Brooklyn, and I'll go to Brooklyn.

[00:32:28] And they're from Germany, right? So normally what's always think they would go to Manhattan first, uh, but they already made the jump. They understand that this is where the much cooler bars, restaurants, uh, and events are, and that's where they wanna be.

[00:32:41] Atif Qadir: So your perspective is that it's an eventuality as opposed to a conditional.

[00:32:45] Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh, so the goal of 25 Kent is to have studios based out of the building with shops on the ground floor where tenants can sell the products that they've been manufac. Uh, that has influenced the tenanting for the project so far. Do you feel that this will become increasingly common in office environments around New York City as opposed to the current service relationship where you'll have an office tenant above and then retail serving those, uh, those tenants below like a cafe or a coffee shop?

[00:33:13] Matthias Hollwich: Yeah, I think you see it in, uh, office use, but also very strongly right now in reside residential use, uh, we call it actually, uh, retail as a. Uh, so where you want to create, uh, on curate basically everything in the building to serve the identity and the mix in the building. And, um, right now apartment buildings still do it on the kind of amenity floor, and very often it just looks pretty, but nobody ever use it.

[00:33:41] Indeed. Uh, right. And so some buildings have managed to make that more, um, functioning. Uh, and I think this is where the journey is. But the return is part of the amenity, and this is how we have to understand it. You have to make sure that it fits with everything together as an added benefit, and maybe you don't make as much money off the retail as you would hope.

[00:34:04] Uh, to make. Uh, but I think retail has changed so drastically anyway, so everyone should be happy to make some money in retail space anyway.

[00:34:12] Atif Qadir: So again, uh, have to lobar for success. I get it. So,

[00:34:15] Matthias Hollwich: yeah, or let's say by thinking differently about, uh, so I thought, for example, in one, um, smart developer in New Jersey, Uh, what he always does is, um, he gives the rent away for the retail space for the first three to five years and always finds entrepreneurs in the neighborhood and gives them opportunities.

[00:34:36] And then suddenly you have a cupcake store of like a, um, hobby chef who always just wanted to do it and said like, no, here's your business opportunity, um, real estate for free for a couple of years. Okay? But if you make money, I take a percent. And suddenly the person is incredible personal. Uh, it goes above and beyond to build a business.

[00:34:57] And the actually many of these, uh, little retail spaces became, uh, very successful, uh, ventures, uh, beyond the building. But then even the gratefulness of the people who got this opportunity resonates out, uh, above and beyond the building. Uh, so there's a, that is. Extreme of a curation, you can do that softer and, and maybe not that, um, um, yeah, that risky in a way.

[00:35:22] Uh, but it's the same principles that you have to apply for your buildings at this

[00:35:26] Atif Qadir: point. So what it sounds like is that it's a growth beyond the traditional. Real estate business model of what can I make per square foot? And combining that more with the venture capital model to understand what can I make in the long term, not just the short

[00:35:43] Matthias Hollwich: term.

[00:35:43] Is that correct? Yeah. And also if you have, um, let's say 20,000 square feet of retail, but you have, uh, 480,000 square foot of office and, uh, you maybe discount your retail and you get a little bit more money on the office, the money, the, the balance sheet should. So

[00:36:03] Atif Qadir: about non-traditional uses, Brooklyn Flea and Smorgasburg started as tenants at 25 Kent just this weekend.

[00:36:11] Could you explain who they are and why they're at 25, Kent?

[00:36:15] Matthias Hollwich: Yeah, I think, uh, first of all, 25 Kent, uh, is such a sturdy building that anything can happen. And from the museum before, from the offices office, tenants now to a market, smu, which is basically an outdoor market, uh, in Brooklyn, uh, which is, uh, renowned, world renowned at this point.

[00:36:37] Um, the, the DNA of the building offers that such a tenant can. Uh, and uh, I believe it's a temporary use, uh, for the winter. Uh, but that's where the building's really well thoughtful, just to allow that to happen. So it's

[00:36:53] Atif Qadir: that theme of how can the building and its tendency evolve and change over time to create this.

[00:37:00] Really dynamic places for people to want to come shop and, uh,

[00:37:04] Matthias Hollwich: work as well. Yeah. And that's, uh, for the owner right now, it's all about placemaking, about introducing the building to the largest audience possible. Sure. Uh, so that there's an excitement so that, uh, when the tenants are all fixed, uh, it has its purpose as a, um, intentional curated building because yeah.

[00:37:26] I'm sure you could get a lot of tenants just to move in, but it's not the point to get, uh, anyone in it. It needs to be the right mix. Sure.

[00:37:34] Atif Qadir: So from that perspective, 25, Kent is a next generation workplace for the next generation of leaders and a social campus for innovators, startup founders and tech leaders.

[00:37:45] Those are the words that are used to describe the building. How do you think that, uh, it'll be possible to measure if the building design was able to live up to those?

[00:37:56] Matthias Hollwich: Yeah, it's gonna be the future will tell. Um, but as an example, for example, um, novation, uh, the university is very, um, uh, how would do you say it, um, reflective on the successes of the building.

[00:38:10] Sure. And, uh, they're actually measuring the venture capital, the company haved. Uh, they measure how many people have visited, uh, what kind of events are happen. And, uh, the building actually superseded their expectation by a multifold. Uh, and, um, by having seen that a 60,000 square foot, uh, building can do that far away from the campus, uh, from the University of Pennsylvania, uh, you can see that very easily translated to a 500,000 square foot office, uh, close to Manhattan in Williamsburg, uh, where everything is happening right now in terms of the, the creative energy of the.

[00:38:50] Atif Qadir: So then it would be, perhaps be correct to say that a lot of what the success of your design is, is about understanding of building as branding and creating unfor, forgett, unforgettable architecture.

[00:39:03] Matthias Hollwich: Yeah. And, uh, the branding needs to come out of the building itself. Right? It's very easy to slash something onto it.

[00:39:09] There's a cool name and create good slogans. Uh, but what's exciting about it is that actually the DNA and the image and also the, uh, the. Inclusion into the neighborhood, uh, in itself is a brand that, that like the name on Kent. I mean, it's like it's the worst name, but it works. Right. Because it's just you show picture the building.

[00:39:34] That's helpful. Yes. But the think, the, the image of the building speaks for itself. Sure. And that is for us, the kind of the power of a architecture. That's exactly how you mentioned, uh, for me now, the unforgettable that's coming in, uh, has different, um, elements that have to play together to make that happen, and that building really stands for it.

[00:39:58] Okay.

[00:39:59] Atif Qadir: Let's go bird's eye view. What does 25 can mean to you personally as the architect and what does it mean to you in the progression of your

[00:40:10] Matthias Hollwich: career? So for me, The most exciting moment is when the building is done and people embrace it and you see people, uh, are happy, uh, and maybe meet new friends, uh, make new connections, or if they work there that their foot have a fulfilling life Sure.

[00:40:29] In the, in the work environment. And that's, uh, what I see with 25 Chem. I saw people just walking by and taking their selfie. Uh, or talking to the people passing by, and I was like, what the hell is this building? Let's check it out. Right? And they're passing through. They went into the, um, beyond the street exhibition.

[00:40:46] Uh, and uh, you see like the hashtags just go, uh, crazy, uh, just by people embracing already what's happening in, in the building. And so this is for me, really the, the moment of satisfaction, of course, the, the like moments of excitement in the process, right? When. Figured out how the building going to look like.

[00:41:08] It's an amazing moment, right? Because, uh, you create something that nobody ever has thought about it before, and some suddenly you see them from of you. And now, of course, now five more years to go until it's really built and, uh, experience for other people. Uh, so that's, that's number one. Um, now from here on, I see that now finally people can go into a building and see what I have talked about for so many.

[00:41:33] And it's basically a proof of concept, and this is also an incredible business development tool. Uh, so I'm seeing right now a lot of people, uh, having already used the image of 25 Kent in the deck, and sometimes the mistake, of course, our partner firm as originator and the hiring Gensler. And now it's like, Hey, can you do that building again?

[00:41:55] It's like, no, somebody else had the idea first. Right. So you need maybe to hire us and counselor to create the next 25 can. Sure. Uh, but um, but we have a lot of people now approaching us and it's helpful of course to have realized such a building on such a dimension and if it's this, the meaning of the building.

[00:42:14] That's great.

[00:42:15] Atif Qadir: So we have time for a few, uh, questions from the.

[00:42:19] Matthias Hollwich: All right. Questions. Hi, audience.

[00:42:26] Atif Qadir: Do you think that the, the, um, development of Domino, the Domino site was, uh, help

[00:42:32] Matthias Hollwich: to catalyze

[00:42:33] Atif Qadir: some of the market in Brooklyn that perhaps helped your project, uh, go through your,

[00:42:39] Matthias Hollwich: yeah, so, uh, I don't know how much, uh, I can tell you about how much it helped or didn't help, didn't, right. Because. As much I recall, uh, but I may be mistaken, uh, there was a, a grand vision that was presented to the city and as soon they went through Europe, couple of things got changed because now they had a lot of freedom to change things because we, zoning in New York gives you sometimes a lot of, uh, freedom, uh, as soon it's done.

[00:43:07] Uh, so our process was watched much more carefully that. Design was built into the rezoning text. Uh, so it was very designed, descriptive, uh, which for me as an architect is awesome, right? Because it gives a lot of, um, uh, security and, uh, so that the design is being realized, uh, based on our vision. Uh, but I believe it costs like a couple of months on, uh, the process time, which normally is very costly and difficult, of course, for a.

[00:43:39] So, um, yeah, I don't think it really helped that much, um, because of the timing, but it maybe helped that the design state actually more true to its intention. Um, but now 25, Ken is helping a lot of other people Yes. That to actually resolve things because of its, uh, embrace of, from the neighborhood and uh, also the city.

[00:44:02] I think the city's very proud of it.

[00:44:07] Awesome. More. When you're evaluating a, a project to go, no go. Um, how do you, what are your criteria for determining whether or not you're gonna pursue a project? We get some very, very good advice, very early. Two things have to come together from three things. Fame, fun and fortune. All three have never come together.

[00:44:30] Yeah, most of the projects are fun. Uh, and, and maybe be fame, but, um, uh, fortunes urgently important. Uh, no, but this are the principles, right? So if it's just about, um, uh, fortune, it's not worth it, right? Because, uh, it's, it's not gonna be a satisfying experience. And I think as an architect, We don't go into this profession to become rich because it's impossible.

[00:44:54] Uh, but, uh, we go into this profession because of our pa, um, passion and about the purpose that, uh, we believe in, in architecture to create something, uh, important for people.

[00:45:08] Atif Qadir: More questions.

[00:45:13] So thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. Absolutely. Uh, next month, uh, we'll be interviewing Sam Heini, the founder and partner of Heini Group at Development construction and architecture firm based in Newark, New Jersey. Their historic renovation projects have been covered by everyone from the Wall Street Journal to Vogue Magazine.

[00:45:35] My name is Gar and this has been conversations at Michael Graves. Thank you.

[00:45:40] Matthias Hollwich: Thank you very much.