Jon Pickard of Pickard Chilton | 2+U in Seattle | Office as Community

Transcript

Atif Qadir  00:07

So we'll get started. My name is Atif Qadir, and this is conversations with Michael Graves. We are recording from the iconic home of architect Michael Graves in Princeton, New Jersey. That is right next to the office of the world renowned design firm that bears his name. In this series, we will hear the stories of American buildings from the perspective of the architects and developers who are constructing them. They will talk about the process and the product on a deeply personal level, highlighting the teamwork, integrity, ingenuity, empathy and commitment that is necessary to produce these works of art gracing the skylines of our cities and towns. Today, our guest is Jon Pickard. John is a founder and principal at Pickard Shelton, an award winning design firm based in Connecticut. We will be talking about two plus you also known as the Qualtrics tower, the studio's recently completed 690,000 square foot next generation office complex in the heart of downtown Seattle. Two plus you consists of two separate towers of 38 stories, and 18 stories joined atop a common podium. It has 19,000 square feet of retail and restaurants over two floors, as well as an underground parking garage. It tops out at 530 feet offering stunning views of Elliott Bay. The developer of the project is Skanska, USA, and the total project budget was 392 million. John, thank you so much for being here with us today.


Jon Pickard  01:36

My pleasure.


Atif Qadir  01:38

So to get started, you started pickguard Shelton, with your partner, Bill Shelton. Before that you are working at a firm just down the street from your current office, Caesar Pelli and Associates. What did you take from that experience and use as you are launching your own firm?


Jon Pickard  01:54

Well, I had the privilege of collaborating with Caesar for 18 years. And toward the end of my tenure with Caesar, we worked side by side on some very exciting projects the most. The latest project the last project of renowned would be the Petronas Towers in Kuala Boer in the National Symphony. And I learned so many lessons from Cesar. And in essence, the decision that Bill and I made to form a company was to, to take all the things we learned from our previous partnerships. And particularly, we looked at Mr. Pele as our professional Father, and to see if we could do what they do, which is to create vital, rich cities, and to serve a client at the highest level and make buildings that make a meaningful difference in people's lives. And so we came together, we'd been classmates at Iowa State way back on our youth, and we'd gone our separate paths. We came together. And then within practically weeks of our coming together, we brought in our third partner Anthony Marquese. And so together we created Picard Shelton, and I think one of the things I want to talk about today as we discuss to and you, architecture is a team sport. And we were talking about that earlier with Joe and the Michael Graves office. It's very much a team sport. And we're proud of that. And I think that aspect is going to influence much of what we discuss here with you and you.


Atif Qadir  03:18

Your client roster over the years from that initial year on has grown to include a who's who of corporate America, from Exxon Mobil to Uber. How did you grow into this specialty of corporate office design? And how did you gain such a large and diverse group of Office clients?


Jon Pickard  03:36

Well, I I'd like to think that we bring a couple things to our practice. The first thing we do is we listen actively to what our clients are trying to achieve. And we bring profound discipline to the process of architecture. We have been benefited because because our previous affiliations with Mr. Pelley clients have gotten to know what we could do. They gave puckered Scholten, opportunities early on that might not come to fledgling architectural studios. And we have I hopefully substantiated their trust that they've placed in us. So what happens is it just builds and so for instance, our first corporate headquarters was for the world's largest pension fund CalPERS in Sacramento. And that was actually a very nice starter project. We were competing with first prize, townhouse renovation, literally Bill and I had just signed a partnership deal. And we had a proposal do that was on a Friday. The proposal is due on a Monday, we had no letterhead, we had nothing. So we ginned up letterhead, we cooked up this proposal. We sent it off we said that's going to be toast. And lo and behold, not only were we shortlisted but we had to compete with Bill Patterson, Jean cone of Kpf. And of course the partnership at SLM. Fortunately, we were selected and the rest is history. So the answer the question, we're just we're just building on that layer of discipline and trust to advance our practice.


Atif Qadir  04:59

So from that first project to two plus you the selection process for two plus he was quite a bit different than that one. That was a design hackathon. Could you talk about sure the structure and how that went?


Jon Pickard  05:12

Any selection process? What a client is endeavoring to do is figure out? Is this firm a good match for what we're trying to do? Do they listen? Do they care? Do we have shared values and I think what we learned on the hackathon is the hackathon is a very catchy word. It was really an extended conversation. Call it a competition, if you will, we often refer to it as a bake off in the office.


Atif Qadir  05:39

Did everyone that was competing, know who else was competing, we had a


Jon Pickard  05:43

sense. And at the very end, we didn't know who we're competing with. In the front end, that was a little bit fuzzy. But what was good about the hackathon is it allowed us to have an extended conversation. And we could understand their vision, they could understand what we cared about. And I think that's you. When you select an architect, you want an architect whose values align with your values. And so if the architect doesn't care about contributing to the vital the city, or really passionately care about the efficiency of the building, the cost of the building, then, you know, maybe that's not quite the right match. And in this extended conversation with Skanska, I think they understood that that we were the right partner. And frankly, I think it's been substantiated, not only by the success of June you but we're continuing to do additional work for a great company Skanska.


Atif Qadir  06:34

So in this context, would you say that Skanska was not a typical client in terms of their selection process?


Jon Pickard  06:42

Yes, I think that's I think they were exceptional. They took the process extremely seriously. They did the research on the candidates. They structured it, for instance, so often, a proposal for architectural services will be about us flat foot as it comes. They'll say I want 500,000 square feet of office and parking for X period. What Skanska did is they painted word pictures of things that they thought might influence the design. And then what we tried to do is, we built on those word pictures, we created images that would say, we haven't designed the building, but these are the kinds of things we want to aspire to. And at the end of the day, I think what was important for us is Skanska had a vision of what it means to build a proper building in the heart of a great city like Seattle, that would in fact, be more than just an office building that would would enhance the the life of the city. And I think they concurred that we were a good choice for that.


Atif Qadir  07:44

So let's talk about the location that you mentioned. So over the past five years, there has been a lot of construction in downtown Seattle, including the demolition of Rainier Square Mall, and the following construction, the restoration of Town Hall and the construction of f5 tower. The demolition of the viaduct, an elevated highway is what really made this site valuable. Why was that? And could you talk more about that?


Jon Pickard  08:07

The site is quite interesting because it exists and they would selected it. It's kind of a confluence of multiple forces. And those forces allowed us to create some magic. So we had the kind of the cult the conventional CBD financial district to the east. We had just kind of kitty corner, the arts district, the Seattle Art Museum, the symphony, we had the Pike Place Market, and then of course, Elliott Bay and Puget Sound. And we were at the kind of the nexus of all that I think the expression that I give credit to Skanska, I think they call it a scene. But it was really what we did was to try to take advantage of the energy that all these multiple districts were exerting. And so as we thought about it, with the viaduct coming down, you suddenly had this window to the water that had been previously blocked. And so we could integrate some of the scales of the adjacent districts, you know, to the water, the buildings are capped by the height limit. And they're, you know, couple storeys tall. So we could, we wanted to integrate that InDesign and we talked about later about how the smaller scale kind of flows under and we integrate the scale from the CBD in the in the tower, but honestly, the site was everything in the design the tower, and two plus you refers to its Second Avenue and university. And so our client wisely just made it succinct. You know, what I'd like to say because it's gonna influence a lot of the questioning is, as we talk about too, and you there is an overarching issue out there that I think is important. We're in I won't call it a revolution, but that's the word that comes to my mind in the design of the workplace. The economy is superheated, and every we've done I think 15 fortune 500 headquarters and last few years, these companies fortune 500. Yes, yes. And these companies are looking to retain and engage their workforce. It's about how do they effectively compete. And at the end of the day, as we talk about to and you, the overriding principle is, how do we allow the tenants at tune you to bring in the talent to do their work effectively and efficiently. And part of that is we have to make a unique environment that is special that differentiates them from the office buildings that we might have done in the 1980s that are just silly. You know, big pompous lobby, empty, nothing and a bunch of rectangular floor plates above. Skanska had a vision and we shared the vision, let's do something profound, let's do something exceptional. Let's make a contribution, Seattle.


Atif Qadir  10:56

So in order to accomplish that, that goal, you essentially have the canvas of an entire city block Exactly. Minus a historic Diller hotel,


Jon Pickard  11:06

I would say not mine, because the dollar was fabulous, because the dealer gave you gave us a counterpoint to the design, it allowed the scale to stay low, or we wanted to scale to it's a four story. Yeah, it's a four story Italianate. It's got quite a checkered history that I don't fully understand. My colleague, Nancy could give you all the details on that. But they've got a very cool bar. And I suspect the dealer will have a new life with a successor to you. But we love the challenge of maintaining the dealer in place. As one of the precepts. It's interesting. We have a secondary reputation as a firm as we're, we're working on multiple projects right now, where we're basically cherishing a historic building, it may not necessarily be a spectacular historic building. But I'm a great believer in if the building has contributed to the dignity of this city. Let's keep it let's build on it. Let's preserve it. Let's respect it. And we're doing that right now and multiple cities around the country.


Atif Qadir  12:03

So that's probably the that process and that perspective is what influenced your eventual design after its relationship with a dealer? No question. Right? So let's talk through some of the site considerations that you have you talked about the use cases that were in and around this location and adjacency to the waterfront. But let's talk about the grade the sunlight and the shadows and other things that influence what eventually came to be?


Jon Pickard  12:28

Well, let me start, we had a big idea, which was to stitch the city together, to allow people from all over the city to come here to be a part of it, but also to move through it. And we had problems of how do you take people coming up from Elliott Bay, bringing them into the site? How do you cross through the site, it turns out, the the grade on Sanic is so steep, it's not even handicap workable, you can't get up, It's so steep, it's like San Francisco on steroids. So what we did is we created a handicap onto the back from the front of the back. So so what we did is we created a path through the site. And then what we wanted to do is we wanted to lift the tower. And if you're going to lift the tower, what we want to do is bring light into the heart of the building. And so we take advantage when when we you can get really wonderful southern and western light that flows. And literally, you know, this is west, south, and the light flows in through the, through the wonderful columns and brings vitality, that space. So as you're designing this stuff, you can appreciate that there are so many forces from the movement of people, the topography, the location of the transit system, to sunlight to winds, all that is factored in to try to create something unique, like the village below the to a new tower.


Atif Qadir  13:55

And in addition to all of those natural considerations that you talked about, and the ones of moving through there were legal and zoning considerations as well.


Jon Pickard  14:06

rather well, as is, you know, there's a there was an alley that runs from university Seneca and you will appreciate we spent great care studying that alley. If we left the alley alone, it would have really compromised the potential to re stitch the city together. And it would serve no positive purpose even though we of course looked at just let the ally stay other than picking up trash other than picking up trash, which that's not what you want as obviously in the current design. We've taken care of all that. And so in this a good example what we did is by vacating the alley, we showed the folks from Seattle, that we could have a better place and one of the things we're proud of is how my partner Tony Marquese, who led the project was able to really bring consensus with the sea handle design review people to say, what's the right thing to do for Seattle? It turned out what I've often learned, if you do the right thing for the city, you also do the right thing for the project and for your client. And it was a win win by literally picking up the building and vacate the alley.


Atif Qadir  15:15

So your client described the ground floor as needing to be very porous, not just for people in the building, but for everyone in the neighborhood. They included the public component that had a performance art and landscaped open space for recreation All in all, the bill for all of that totaled about $12 million. Why do you think this cost was necessary in light of the design process they described of your firm,


Jon Pickard  15:40

you know, independent of whether that's a real number or not? What I think they did, let's go back to from the perspective of the developer, what are they trying to achieve, they're trying to lure the best tenants to their project, and give them a great environment in which they can their their employees can do their work. And so not only do we take great care and thinking through the workplace, you know, the space is up in here. But we we wanted to create an environment is the base that is unlike anything you've experienced. And so I would argue if it was only $12 million, I actually suspect was a bit more than that. Likely more than that. It was a it was a prudent investment. How to why well, the city is thrilled the entire building is leased. I believe the rents that are being achieved are in alignment with their expectations. Their success all around. So so why would one not want to invest something special to create a special building.


Atif Qadir  16:47

So the the outdoor components, not the only part of the ground floor, there's also the interior component, that's the urban village, right. So that's the 80 foot by 85 foot high volume that has two floors of food and beverage and retail, which is that also intended for the office tenants as well as the public.


Jon Pickard  17:09

Absolutely. And they're still in the process of leasing the retail. But what I found interesting, I will, I will tell you I, I was scratching my head as as they were going through the process because Seattle is one of the most vibrant cities that you can imagine. And we've worked in other cities that to be positive where or less vibrant. And so if our client had elected to not lift the tower and do an urban village, the project would probably been perfectly successful. But they they chose to do it because it was the right thing to make something special. So how those spaces are used is yet to be figured out. I think they did it because their tenant base wanted the vitality. They didn't just want the classic the office building comes down, and you shove in a coffee shop that looks out on the main street. And that's it. They they wanted to go beyond that. So it's going to be a little bit of a of a test to see how it plays out. But I will tell you, Skanska is committed to the city and their tenants. But for instance, they're gonna have a full time manager. And that manager there, their job is going to be programming the public spaces, making sure that performances are occurring. The craft fairs that come the art shows are there. Check the box, it's not just to check the box. This is this is a real commitment. And so I mean, I'm, I'm very impressed with Skanska his vision and commitment to do the right thing. To too many, too many commercial developers would take an alternative path.


Atif Qadir  18:46

You'd mentioned earlier on in the description of the building's design thesis were the columns that were a key part to lifting the urban village and creating that environment underneath. So these W shaped steel, like columns are, from my perspective, both structural and sculptural at the same time, and what led you to that design decision? And what was the interplay with those items with the Office layouts above?


Jon Pickard  19:14

So I'll go back as it's important, you know, this is a team sport. And one of our most respected colleagues is Ron Clements ik probably one of the gift most gifted structural engineers practicing today. And as we we lifted the tower, the first thing the architect says we'll put in a series of vertical stilts. And as we worked through with Ron we realized because we do have seismic forces to deal with, that if we can do a series of called W's or V's that are connected, we can actually do a better job stabilizing the torsional motion of the tower. And parenthetically, my partner Tony, he is a very gifted artist. He saw the sculptural potential instantly and we We shared that with a client. And honestly, it was a combination of it was structurally efficient, potent, visually compelling, versus just a series of vertical vertical posts. And so it it existed nearly from the very beginning and has never changed. And then what happens is, the offices above are relatively straightforward. And that's kind of the more boring part. And it's a efficient L shaped floor plate. For the most part, the columns are vertical, where we do have seismic issues, we have what we call the W. And you can see in this model right here, because the building wants to rotate the core here stabilizes the major tower here it wants to rotate. So those W shaped columns go up through there. And that acts like a transparent shear wall to stiffen up the building, and also, frankly, makes it more visually compelling.


Atif Qadir  20:50

Glad you just mentioned the seismic considerations that has finished binge watching the big one, and NPR podcast about depressing seismic activity in LA. So I'm glad glad you asked that. So I learned at your office last week that the columns that we talked about were built off site in British Columbia. And the process of getting those massive columns to the site was utterly fascinating. Could you talk about some of the craziest logistical parts of actually getting that done?


Jon Pickard  21:20

I'd like to not use the word crazy. It was just ingenuity, it was it was a challenge that needed to be managed. The columns were fabricated British Columbia, and we had the good fortune. So first of all, it was relatively close to the site. Our rural view is very often we're working on projects like this will have most of it coming from all over the world. So the fact that we could get the columns close, was a good thing. And it allowed the logistics to be solved. The majority of the 20 columns were able to be trucked. Through the streets, we had to we actually, we, our client retained a logistics expert to help us on that. And we orchestrated a path from the fabricating plant down to the site. And in the wee hours of you know, a Sunday morning before the we would truck the stuff in that solved most of the columns. But the columns range between 70 and 170,000 pounds. So for the big Whoppers, apparently, they exceeded the capacity of some of the bridges between the fabrication plant, and construction site. So we put those on a barge had bring those down, and then we could roll them up on trucks up the hill to get into place. But it all went perfectly seamlessly. You know, you could appreciate a logistical operation like that. It's very, very carefully managed, say engineered, if not crazy, in exactly, not crazy. Special.


Atif Qadir  22:47

So, office buildings like this one are amongst the most energy intensive buildings that are built. For example, to bless you included 6000 tons of steel, 280,000 square feet of glass, and 250 miles of wire. How did you integrate green building practices into the design of this building?


Jon Pickard  23:08

You know, the good news is the city of Seattle has some of the highest energy standards in the country. And that's, that's actually a very good thing. And of course, we bring Brest best practices to bear. So there are hundreds of elements that we pay attention to it starts with the exterior enclosure. If you were building in other cities, oftentimes you'll see floor to ceiling glass, because you want to provide the maximum views to the tenants. In this case, we needed to tune that to maintain energy efficiency. So we have a very high performance exterior enclosure, where the sill is not at the floor, it comes up about two foot four. And so we've controlled that we have super efficient mechanical systems, where we have radiant panels at the perimeter where we can bring in chilled water and hot water. It's very efficient to provide for comfortable environment for the tenants in the building. Everything all the all the roofs we capture the rainwater. And we can really we have lots of green roofs wherever we can. So we've touched every button that we can within the limits of a commercial office building budget. Today, we're at LEED Gold. And we're certainly that our client continues to see if we can go beyond that. But it's certainly one of the most sustainable buildings of any commercial office building that's built in the last few years.


Atif Qadir  24:32

Those design strategies that you talked about are those called passive building technologies.


Jon Pickard  24:37

Well, they're some are passive, but you know, those are the others others are gonna be active. Yeah.


Atif Qadir  24:44

And then what elements of the Northwest environment that this building is in were you able to bring into the design? I?


Jon Pickard  24:54

This is the fun part. It's very hard to say well, what why is this appropriate to the culture of the Northwest here versus here versus somewhere else. There is. There's a kind of a idiosyncrasies. I started going out to the, you know, Seattle and north of San Juan Islands. 30 years ago, my mother and father in law had a home at the San Juan Islands. And I had the, my brother in law worked in Seattle. So I had the privilege of seeing the city transform. And there's a, there's a kind of a wonderful idiosyncrasy in Seattle, that I applaud. And I think part of what I think is quite special about two of you is that it captures some of that. You mentioned it when we met a couple days ago, the pipe market, where they throw the fish, and the urban environment is charming, but not particularly tailored. And there's something you know, as we created the urban village, we were trying to say, this feels to us, like a Seattle maneuver. You know, I'm not sure we would do that in Houston. But maybe we would. Also and again, this is when Tony talks about the creation, those columns. I think he's referred to the many times as these giant redwoods are sequoias. And there's something there that just it just, it feels right. And then the way the light comes in, it's filtered through those, you have the shadows of the giant tree trunks on the Piazza floor. You know, is it appropriate to Seattle? I defer to the folks that live in Seattle answer that question, I feel like it is I will tell you, we surely tried to make it be a part of that culture.


Atif Qadir  26:37

Let's talk a little bit about the office portion of the building. So the office floors have 18,000 to 30,000 square foot floor plates, 10 foot ceilings and column free spaces. What kind of tenants did you have in mind when you were designing this,


Jon Pickard  26:53

so what you have responsibility as an architect, to your client, to make sure that the building has the flexibility to meet lots of needs. So you will not be surprised when I tell you that we assumed it would be to the tech tenants. And that is indeed, you know, as you know, it's indeed Dropbox, and Qualtrics, among, among many others. But the building is really designed if in 20 years, the world has changed. And closed perimeter offices become important or an a high profile law firm wants to move in, we've designed the spaces to accommodate those needs, it does not need to be a tech company. What we have done, which which I think is very important is on those upper floor plates, the core is actually snuggled up to Second Avenue. And that's a way from the view away from the view. So what we did is we put the people with the view. And then and this is very unusual in commercial office space design, we put the typical required exit stairs are normally buried in the concrete, we move them to the perimeter with glass and light. And research has shown that if we have glass and light, people actually use the stairs, six times more likely than if they were buried inside of a concrete core. And why is that important? Well, people will talk on a stair in a way they will not in an elevator. So just moving those stairs to the perimeter, we think makes the space more more valuable. And so if you're on two floors, or three floors or four floors, your employees will be using the stairs, other small things sounds silly. We put the washrooms on the perimeter with natural light, and why the washrooms have to be dismal. And so, you know, why not? We put the washrooms where the views are not so spectacular. And let the rest of the space be used for the employees to capture views out over Puget Sound. So those are the kinds of things that are not your typical commercial office building, they would not have been done even five years ago. They're relatively new. And I think those are the little touches that in addition to floorplates, flexibility, sighs major core minor core all the leasing things that your listeners probably don't want to hear about that make the building meet the business needs of


Atif Qadir  29:12

the tenants that they're appealing to, or the listeners that are developers like, yeah, exactly right.


Jon Pickard  29:16

If you're a developer, you might care about this.


Atif Qadir  29:18

So what it sounds like then is the perspective that you took in the design was one that was less about what is the office design trend of the moment? For example, open office? Yes. Which has essentially seen its rise and fall over the course of design of this project, to one that is more holistic about what would someone want here, and those stylistic changes can be made.


Jon Pickard  29:43

But you know, what we've learned is these buildings will stand for a very long time. One of my first buildings that I collaborated with Cesar on is a it's Wells Fargo Center in Minneapolis. And you realize, you know, I've been in the game a little bit, but that building has been completed for Little over 25 years, it went all the design awards was completed in 1986, or 87. But today, it is still considered the finest building in the city, it still commands the highest rents in the city, that's after 25 years, I believe the useful life of a building like to anew is going to be you tell me a century. So it would be presumptuous of all of us to say this is how this floorplan is gonna be used, because it's going to change. And we have to provide a thoughtful design, because true sustainability is creating a building that people will want to use today, tomorrow, and in four decades or five decades or six decades. And that's one reason is I talked about earlier I, I have one of my my issues is taking historic buildings that maybe are thought to be past their prime, and finding the elements within them that can be retooled, and embrace them. And if you can save that building and not port port down, that's sustainable. And I'm hopeful that that when my great great grandchildren are thinking about commercial real estate in Seattle, that this will be something that will wish to be saved.


Atif Qadir  31:09

John, that's honestly refreshing because that speaks to the values of you as an architect and the values of your client as an owner, and not just the 10 year pro forma,


Jon Pickard  31:20

no, it's not a 10 year pro forma. And we've been very blessed. I mean, of course, many of our clients will will do a project and if they can turn a fair profit, they may, but so many clients, we're very fortunate we work a lot with Heinz and, you know, Heinz is one of the most respected developers in the world. And they will always design and build for a decade plus outlook, that it's not a get in, do it and flip the building. And so therefore, you make better decisions, you make better buildings.


Atif Qadir  31:52

So let's talk a bit about the way that the tenants of the building will be fitting out and and using their space. You as the the architect of the building Did you have some direction or some say in the fit out of the individual floors are those are generally loved,


Jon Pickard  32:07

I'd love to tell you we do and and when I started in this profession, I truly thought as the architect that we could help counsel the tenants into how they would use the space. At the end of the day, we are I was utterly powerless. I'm not sure that's quite true. But we do not have substantive power. What we can do, though, and this is, is we can paint a picture. So for instance, it was absolute doctrinaire up until a few years ago, that you had to put the silly two by two acoustical ceiling in, that's just what you had to do. Well, you don't need to do that. And so what we will typically encourage on to and you and some other projects is leave the ceiling off, we need to pay attention to organizing the mechanical system, the ceiling and the sprinklers and fire proofing and acoustics. But if you if you leave this if you put the ceiling and you have a 10 foot ceiling, if you take the ceiling off, you have a 13 foot ceiling, and it's and frankly, it's much more interesting. And so for many of the tech tenants, that's what they'll do. If you're, you know, fancy, you know, consulting firm, maybe you'll put the ceiling but no, I wish we could solve that but we can't. The tenant, the tenant rules


Atif Qadir  33:20

set I'm curious about your perspective on this because offices today seem to include a laundry list of features like a cafe, with a open kitchen area, phone booths, meditation rooms, napping areas, foosball, all of this stuff. How do you make sense of all of that when you see the way that office spaces either in your building or others are actually eventually laid out and lived in? Well,


Jon Pickard  33:47

what we have to do is the tenants will often choose to do a lot of that within their premises, the foosball nonsense and it's beyond my butt, but that's, that's their business. You didn't


Atif Qadir  33:57

have a hand in choosing the foosball table so


Jon Pickard  33:59

we don't use a foosball but what we do we have to a tenant expects more than just an empty shell. They want to know that their employees now they may choose to put food in but if they choose not to put food and they need to know there's food so it's it's not by mistake that Skanska is trying to promote food operations in the in the urban village. So we have a beautiful cafe so when you come in the lobby, old days come in the lobby, you got the pompous, you know marble on the wall, marble on the floor and kind of dead. Now you come in to to and you there's a beautiful cafe, it flows on the lobby, there's vitality. So we've done that. We've got a great fitness room fitness, I think it's called fitness yoga, which is great. It's not big, but it's nice. Now, tenants can use that or they can choose to do on their own. We used to never do a conference center now we have it's a it's a fabulous we got a series of conference rooms. They're sprinkled throughout the urban village. So you can sort of select the room you want the Vista you want and that's made available to the tenants. So what it means is if you're a small tenant like a, you know, maybe a small architect and you're you're going to lease a few 1000 square feet, you'd like to have a big room, you got a big presentation for a special client, you can't afford to put the conference room your space. But in the base of the building in the urban village, at the top of the stack right here, there's this fabulous conference room with a view out over Elliott Bay, that's available for you. So although the rent may be a little higher than you had hoped to pay, you can say, You know what, I'll be able to recruit the talent, I'll be able to leverage it, I've got the fitness, I've got the bikes, I've got the showers for the people the bike, I've got everything I need right there. And it's so when you do the real careful analysis, it's a good investment, to spend a few pennies more to rent that space than to go into a stripped down building. Maybe it's a lower rent, but you don't have the things that you need to be successful. That sounds


Atif Qadir  35:57

like that would be also better fitting of the needs of the clients for a developer anyway,


Jon Pickard  36:02

absolutely. It's a win win. Or put another way, if a if a developer chose not to put in fitness conference center cafe, they wouldn't, they wouldn't make it, especially in a place like Seattle, like Seattle. But even I don't mean to be tough on other cities, I won't get in specific, but even in lesser less interesting cities, they wouldn't make it they you have to do it. Five or 10 years ago, you could make a choice today you have to do.


Atif Qadir  36:32

I want to take a moment to tell listeners about our hosts Michael Graves architecture and design. This design firm has been serving clients worldwide for 55 years. From their offices in Princeton, New York City and Washington DC. They provide planning, architecture, interior design, and graphic design services for many different building types. Hotels and Resorts, office buildings, cultural educational facilities, housing, healthcare, and civic structures are all part of their repertoire. With hundreds of design awards, it's clear that they care deeply about their profession, and are keen to share their ideas widely. So let's turn to some of the business decisions of two plus you so Skanska decided to develop this with no pre leasing in place, from your experience and working with a wide variety of clients. Is that a reflection of intelligent planning, Insanity or about


Jon Pickard  37:30

it? I think it's intelligent planning. It's courage. It's courage. There are a lot of markets and I cannot speak to Seattle. I've done maybe the firm has done 20 million square feet of projects in Houston, I can talk to Houston. But there are some markets that use it as the Exxon Mobil projects. Well, Exxon Mobil and many others. Yeah. But there's some markets where the tenants want to kick the tires. And you know, the markets there. But you're not going to get them and there. And in this world, the tech world is so fast changing that it's almost impossible for you to say, well, I Okay, in three and a half years, I'm going to need to take down 42,000 square feet. You just can't get there. And so what are now in three and a half months, okay, yes. Right. So what Skanska did that that I think was was appropriate, as they said, I believe in the future of Seattle, cross your fingers, the economy hangs in there. And we go. And I applaud that there are a lot of people that in the same circumstance, they don't have the courage or the internal organization is such that it's so bureaucratic, nobody can make that call. And so they what they do is they don't go forward. And therefore they have a project that sits and a project that sits is bad project, the city is not revitalized, and nobody's going to make any money. So


Atif Qadir  38:54

so from that perspective, without the benefit of those leases, signed, early Skanska invested and a holographic leasing center. Talk to us about that.


Jon Pickard  39:03

Well, you know, it's essential, you cannot lease a project like this without communicating the vision in some way. And so in the old days, we build the models and so forth. Now, what's happening with virtual reality and holographic systems, it's basically a way to really step into the building. And so you know, you'll put on the little goggles and the potential customer can really experience the space. And so Skanska has used it as a leasing tool, but we used it as a as a critical design tool. We do this on all of our projects. It's not fair to expect a client as you're designing an important public space, to be able to read a plan and a section or an Interior Elevation and put it together. I mean, you just can't do it. With all due respect. Most architects can't do it. And so it's quite a strange


Atif Qadir  39:54

notion to imagine that a client would be able to read and understand something as a effectively as you the design professional preparing it,


Jon Pickard  40:02

no, it's impossible. So on all of our projects, we build lots and lots of models. And now in the last probably five years, we do virtual reality where we can put the goggles on. And our clients can literally walk into the space and turn around just as they would naturally and see something and then we use as a tool. So we can look up and say, That doesn't work the way the ceiling intersects with a wall. It's very effective. And it's although Skanska was a little ahead of the curve, I would argue. Any developer today must do virtual reality or die. I mean, it's, it's essential, because you're the tenants are going to expect to understand what they're what they're dealing with. And it's a small investment for a big return.


Atif Qadir  40:51

So investor die wouldn't be the perspective for developers, what about for architecture firms and their adaptation, adaptation of technology such as that, would you make the same?


Jon Pickard  41:03

Absolutely, in fact, we were talking to Joe before the, the, the podcast here. And, you know, he was showing me their significant investment and Michael Graves. And, and he recognizes that, in order to share your vision with a client, you really have to have the technology we we've all reached that. So I can't imagine of all the firms that we compete with, they all have virtual reality. And you know, it's just, it's just an essential, and a sophisticated client will expect that.


Atif Qadir  41:34

So let's fast forward from bringing the tenants into the space to them, enjoying and occupying that space. So Skanska is employing a very high touch concierge style management you had mentioned earlier. So I've heard of hotel style residential, what does hotel style office mean? Well,


Jon Pickard  41:54

let me back up. One of the things that we learned early on, you know, you learn a lot from your class. I mean, and architects. They need to just take a breath, because we think we know a lot when we do something, but our clients usually know more. And Lisa Picard, and Murph McCullough, who led the project, there was an expression that they threw out early on called the warm hello. Now, it sounds perhaps a little silly. But the warm hello was an expression that we tried to capture in everything we did, that this is not a building, and I'm going to answer your question, but I'm trying to get back a little bit. This is something influenced the architecture that it was, that was warm as accessible, it was rich, that the extra enclosure I'll compare and contrast so so many commercial office buildings are kind of a sheer sheen of glimmering glass. We wanted to articulate floors, columns, of human beings stands there, we wanted materials that you would touch and feel good about. As a part of the warm hello, that warm hello extends in the lobby. One of my concerns and I have advocated to our clients for the last 10 years is the days of the chap that that was 300 pounds that wore the blue suit and was ready to kind of throw you out if you looked wrong. At the front desk. That's not really a welcoming experience for tenant or tenants guests is described downtown Manhattan's exactly so you need the hospitality industry has this really figured out so whether you prefer four seasons, or St. Regis or pick your flavor, when you're when you come into those facilities, you're very warmly welcomed. They try to help you solve whatever problems you have. I think we've learned from hospitality industry and and our clients today have made that shift. And so hopefully, I would argue when I refer to the perception component, I refer to them as ambassadors or concierge. I don't refer to them as a security guard, even though yes, indeed, there's a security component. They need to the thinking needs to be revised. And that human touch. It's not it's not just hospitality. It's human. The warm hello, has is finding its way into commercial office.


Atif Qadir  44:15

So that sounds like another area where Skanska has chosen to invest in order to better meet the needs of their tenants and to stay ahead of their competition. That's


Jon Pickard  44:26

exactly correct. Okay, that's exactly correct. So,


Atif Qadir  44:29

now let's talk about the timeframe of two plus you you were engaged on this project and 2014 Skanska got permits and 2016 and construction ended and 2019. What are some of the challenges in staffing a large project that sprawls over five years as team members perhaps come and go?


Jon Pickard  44:53

Well, I'm really proud. We're old fashioned as a firm in the sense that we are I don't think we have ever played musical chairs with our clients. And so, on this project, you know, we the project has been led on a nearly daily basis by Anthony Marquese, my partner by Nancy Clayton, their senior associate, Adrian Nelson, this those three individuals, and they've been supported by a vast team of Picard shown, those three individuals have been on the project from day one from the first hackathon conversation all the way through. Now, why is that? I think one of his we've been able to create a welcoming, supportive environment of Picard Shelton, a warm hello, and our staff. You know, it's been wonderful because they've been there on average, many years. People don't go if they if they choose to leave, typically, tonight, we're the young man, Jonathan Cook, Johnson is gonna go off to get his master's, and either at Princeton or Yale. So when someone leaves, that's why they leave, hopefully they come back. But we have been very proud. There's very little turnover, in spite of the fact that we've been on the project for six years.


Atif Qadir  46:07

So in terms of the external team, as well, they're many outside firms. And you mentioned the structural engineer, earlier on, could you talk about some of the other firms that you had an opportunity to work with, on this massive project.


Jon Pickard  46:23

So as a part of our business model, for every project that occurred, Shelton is engaged to design, we work with an architect of record or an executive architect, depending on how you want to refer to it. And that is there a partner, we work side by side there in every meeting. And in fact, they they help bring a technical balance. We think it's a perfect balance of design and technical, it's not that we don't have technical skills we do. It's not that they don't have design they do. But together you have slightly different focus. And we think a client is served at the highest level by bringing that together. So in a project like this, Kendall Heaton, and John O'Connell is the is the managing partner, have been our partner on this. And I'm proud to say we have probably done 30 projects with Kendall Heaton. And they're one of the most respected architects practicing anywhere on the planet. And, and so it's a great partnership. And of course, they don't do it by themselves. So I've mentioned Ron Clemente and MK a, of course, on the mechanical side, you know, we're working with the WS P firm, out of Seattle, on the landscape, it's the Swift firm, and you, you can appreciate on a project of this complexity, there is a broad range of characters that all have their voice. And so we, you know, put it together and make, hopefully a tasty bouillabaisse. And you know, you add a little bit of this and add a little bit of that, and it makes it special. But the days of the genius architect going off in their Garrett, and creating the vision, that's a that's a myth. It always wasn't. I think it always was a myth. But Mr. Wright did an excellent job of perpetrating that myth, but, but it is a team sport.


Atif Qadir  48:13

So right now you're working on another large office building and Seattle with Skanska on northeast Eighth Street. So no pre late releases again. What other similarities? Would you say there are between?


Jon Pickard  48:27

It's interesting, there are so many. I'll start with what's different. We're not lifting the building. Okay. Because there is no, there was a real urban design need here to lift. There's not here. But what we are doing is for site constraints, the floor plate is a little bit tricky. You can't do the classic shoe box. And so what we're doing is it's a kind of a beautiful laws and chases


Atif Qadir  48:53

shoe box means rectangular,


Jon Pickard  48:55

yeah, if if you look at 95 7% of the commercial office buildings designed and built their shoe boxes, they're nominally 110 by 120, by 210, or 240. That's what they are. And I won't get into why but that's what they are. So this is not an it's a kind of a lozenge shape. And the core is set to side. But in order to make the building work cost effectively, structurally, much of the framing is a series of diagonals on the perimeter, because you know very well the seismic counts. And we could not in this case, we could use the Corps to do a lot of the work for us. In the case in the Bellevue project, northeast eight, we put the structure on the outside, but for instance, now we haven't talked about here. There's some wonderful balconies that we've integrated into to in you, which are provide really great experiences for the tenants come out and engage the outside and in Seattle, it's a wonderful climate, you can do that. So we'll we'll do this. It's very unusual. We we have been advocating this for about a decade. Most of our clients will say yeah, it's good idea. I'm Maybe not because it costs a little more that balcony, and I have resources to back it up, will typically generate from the developers perspective, a 20%, on average, a 20% premium in the rents that are charged on the floor that has the balcony. And so I would say in the last three years, that knowledge is find its way through the market. And suddenly, balconies are being developed on commercial office buildings. And it's real, it's we've, we've got enough buildings, we can say, look at that building, that building that building that building, and the rents have gone up, or the deal was made, because that balcony, or an adjacent roof garden, created a unique experience for the tenants. And they said, I want to be in that building. So sign me up.


Atif Qadir  50:44

So it sounds like those changes in a particular market happen because of firms that decide to drive that change either on the client side, or on the designer side.


Jon Pickard  50:56

Exactly. And so what we do is, as architects will put these ideas out there, and then have a debate with our clients. And so in the case of our project, with Skanska, in Bellevue, many of the characteristics that I think are interesting about two and you will find their way to that project, although if you were to look at it, it looks like a very different building. It doesn't it doesn't look like it doesn't look like a brother or sister. Maybe it doesn't. But it's very, very different. But the principles that guide it, which I think is what's important, are there, the the vitality at the at the street, the gardens, the parks, the restaurants, the the sense of the public spaces, they're just spectacular, and they're really wonderful.


Atif Qadir  51:34

And to be fair, it wouldn't be right for that building to be a twin, our brother and sister because all of those considerations that go in even at the process of this, like all those considerations will be very unique.


Jon Pickard  51:45

That's That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And you want, you want a building that that has depth of underlying principles, but is appropriate to the specific urban condition that finds itself in? Sometimes that's a little hard. Fortunately, in Seattle and Bellevue, you know, the, the urban context is rich enough, that it gives you something to work on, it gets complicated in other cities, where there's the you don't have that richness.


Atif Qadir  52:12

So let's take a bird's eye perspective, how does two plus you fit into the overall portfolio for your firm?


Jon Pickard  52:19

I think when we let's step out, and you know, 20 years out, and we look back, I think two and you is going to mark an important transition, I would argue we've created some very beautiful workplace environments, for the for the previous 20 years, that the revolution in our office started with our real corporate work, for instance, Exxon Mobil is quite, I wouldn't say revolutionary, but we're doing some things that are very unusual with access to daylight and views. And I think to and you marks some of those ideas being introduced into a multi tenant commercial, urban building. And for me, that's why it's important. It's a it's an intriguing building. I'm not, I'm not here talking with you, if Tony were here, he could talk to you for two hours about the beautiful aesthetics. I'm just talking about the principles. And I think the principles that underlie this building are really important. And I think they point to a different path in the future. So this will be a very important building. That's one of the reasons that I, I wanted to share it with you tonight. As you can appreciate, we have many, many special children to choose from to discuss. But this was this is a special one.


Atif Qadir  53:36

So my guess is it's difficult to pick one favorite but this is one that's amongst the


Jon Pickard  53:41

it is. And it's interesting, because I'm proud to say I had very, very little to do with this project. I give full credit to Nancy Clayton and Tony and Adrian, for leading the project. He was the design principal had very little to very little to do this project very little to do the project. Yeah, no, it's it's it's a we can get into how the firm works. There are some projects where I practically draw every little detail that this is not one of them. And the reason I'm saying that because I want to highlight why I put this up as the project to talk about because I think it's so important. And it's not like I'm sitting there sharing my my special child with you. It's the it's the firm's special child.


Atif Qadir  54:28

That's it for my questions, John. So I wanted to leave time for a few questions from the audience.


54:35

I have a question. Of course, I think there's a fascinating story about a collaboration between a developer and an architect and we're very like minded. Do we see this in your other work or maybe ExxonMobil or even like mindedness with your corporate client? How do you go about sorting through the asks that you might have, or the pursuits that you might have with clients to make sure that your clients and you Whether it's a speculative building or corporate headquarters are like minded and you can produce the kind of wonderful work that you that you're known for.


Jon Pickard  55:08

It's a great question. It's very hard. It Well, let me back up. To answer it. 90% of our projects are at least the last time we looked at our repeat clients. And so we're building on a foundation of knowledge and trust, we, we know what they expect. And we can build upon that, where it gets complicated is you have a new relationship, and you don't know what you're getting into. And you may we do want to work with clients that care. And they're, you know, very well, there are some commercially focused real estate folks who don't truly care about the city. And we don't want to be affiliated with somebody that just wants to, to buy our expertise. Or if we have a name or name, we want shared ideals. And so honestly, we do significant research before we're leaving, go meet with them. And then what we try to do as we try to slow down the selection process long enough that we can make sure we align expectations. And there have there have been actually many situations where my bill and I was telling a story the other day of a developer who was very excited to hire us for a major project in the south. And we could just tell, we were in a meeting listening to this guy, you know, blow his horn for an hour or so, Bill and I were across the table from one another, we didn't even have a chance to talk. We've just looked at one another. And we knew this guy was not our cup of tea. And so we very gracefully thanked him for the opportunity and consideration. And we said goodbye. So we try to get that sorted out. I don't think honestly, if I think back, I don't, I cannot think of a client that has not turned out to be a good client. We've been very fortunate because I think something happens. I think there's a there's a self selection that occurs somewhere. And we've not been into a situation where you know, it's uncomfortable.


Jon Pickard  57:19

Miss Clayton, you should know all the tough questions to ask.


57:28

I couldn't ask another question. Since you've since you said so I've always been impressed with the the the firms that have come out of Susan Peleus office, not only because of the the consideration of the urban fabric or the the quality of the architecture, but because of what must have been an office culture. And I was wondering if your experience at at the appellee firm and the way you've tried to fashion your own firm, have some relationship in terms of the nurturing culture and being able to occur such a longevity among your staff?


Jon Pickard  58:04

There's no question. I was tapped by Caesar I was I had been his student in the studio. I was tapped as his first employee when he rebuilt the company in 1979. I love the man I respect the man, you could not help. And he had he built a firm of trust. And he he clearly cares passionately about his clients. But but we learned many lessons. He had an expression that that I've never forgotten, he said the building is more important than the architect. But the city is more important than the building. And that's an interesting way of kind of synthesizing his focus. So as we've looked at the creation of Picard, Shelton, what Bill and Tony and I have done is we've basically taken the positive experiences that we appreciated with Caesar, or bill with Bill worked for another sarin and protege, Leonard Parker. And so we've kind of put this all together. And so we see ourselves as the children of this legacy. And we and we pay attention to it and and we try to do the right things. So I don't know, I'm too close to it to know if we've done a good job of mapping on to what all the positives have experienced at Caesars, but we surely try it has been a part of we've done it openly and, and being very aware of that. And we'll see. It's a great fun.


Atif Qadir  59:37

So thank you so much for joining us.


Jon Pickard  59:39

We thank you. It's been great fun. Thank you. Thanks for having us come to beautiful Princeton.


Atif Qadir  59:43

Absolutely. Next time I'll be interviewing Martin Dida, the founder and CEO of ditto residential. His development company has a large portfolio of creative historic renovation and new construction projects in the metro DC area. My name is Arthur father and this is been conversations with Michael Graves