Ann Rolland of FXCollaborative | Hunter's Point Campus in Long Island City | School as a Sanctuary

Transcript

Announcer  00:06

What goes into making an iconic building in America? What are the stories and who are the people behind the next generation of architecture? If your work touches the real estate industry in any way, or you're just curious about what goes into one of a kind cities and towns all across our country, join us on the American building podcast. In season two, we learn about everything from skyscrapers to single family homes from the famous and soon to be famous designers and developers responsible for them. This season focuses particularly on the pandemic and how our buildings will change in response. Our sponsor is the iconic design firm Michael Graves architecture and design. And now your host award winning architect turned entrepreneur, Atif Qadir, AIA.


Atif Qadir  01:04

This is American building, and I'm your host, Atif Qadir. We are recording from the historic home of world renowned architect Michael Graves in Princeton, New Jersey, check out this amazing space for yourself at the Michael Graves architecture and design YouTube channel. Now let's build something. today. 


Atif Qadir  01:23

Our guest is architect Ann Rolland. She's a partner at the renowned architecture firm effects collaborative based in New York City. She launched the cultural and educational practice of the firm with her colleague Sylvia Smith 23 years ago, and was previously at the predecessor firm to FX collaborative, which was called FX fell in those years, and her buildings have won a dazzling array of awards, including from the Beverly Willis architecture Foundation, and the Center for Architecture Foundation. She was also elevated to the College of fellows of the American Association of architects, an honor reserved for America's best architects. Today, we will be talking about q 404. And in plain English that is the Academy for careers in television and film. That is a specialized public high school and an associated Middle School at the Hunter's Point section of Queens, New York. The project was recipient of the AIA New York State Excelsior award, through the project, and will tell us about innovative schools just like this one, and how they've responded to the pandemic. And she'll talk about how she sees schools being designed and built in the future. Thank you so much for being on the American building podcast, Ann. 


Ann Rolland  02:40

it's great to be here at TIFF. We actually thought about doing this, I think over a year ago. So


Atif Qadir  02:46

that's true. So better late than never think that's the expression. So we're gonna start start off with one of your passions is not architecture, so it's tense. So it probably seems like a strange place to start. But tell us about playing sports, particularly tennis played a role in how you approach design.


Ann Rolland  03:05

So it actually is a great place to start because I started playing tennis probably when I was five years old, probably. And tennis is a sport where I really think I started learning about spatial concepts from the game of tennis. So things like the geometry of the court, I learned pretty quickly as a young player, that if I hit cross court, the court was longer, there's four feet longer than if I hit down the line. And then definitely scale and proportions. Were just sort of probably subliminally in my mind. I've always sort of relish in the fact that the service box and the back cord of a tennis court is a golden section. Is it? Yeah, it is. It's just it's a little bit off, but good enough for me. Yeah. It's funny, like, of course, I'm an architect, I had to check that. But the other thing is about sort of three dimensions. And I learned early as a child that things had height, width and depth, so and even fourth dimension of time and speed. So if I hit the ball higher over the net, depending on the velocity of how I hit, it would go out or it would stay in and then the nuance of spin right. So if I had topspin, it would stay in and if under spin it might carry out. So just even current and winds and things like that. I think I was my first introduction to how the natural environment, the sun and the wind affected things that we were doing as human beings. And then it also taught me I think about strategic thinking. So it's a game that has very defined boundaries to it. So you're playing within some guidelines, but there are infinite ways in In which you can sort of carry out your mission. So it taught me really how to be creative within a certain set of circumstances.


Atif Qadir  05:08

I think what I really enjoyed about that is the reality that although one might imagine that the practice of architecture in the process of architecture is this two dimensional thing on a piece of paper, and we're on a screen, the reality is there are so many inputs even beyond time alone, like the ones that you mentioned, that are necessary to think about in terms of great architecture. It's funny,


Ann Rolland  05:29

because I also think like being an architect has made me a better better tennis player


Atif Qadir  05:34

to really explain away what you mean.


Ann Rolland  05:37

Well, because I think spatially all the time. And I think in terms of geometry, and probably sometimes to my detriment, I'm going for things that I probably shouldn't. But it really feeds me, and energizes me as an architect, because I'm out there constantly thinking about form, proportions shape, how I'm going to deal with the sun, how I'm going to deal with the wind. And it's just constant reminder to me, that all those elements and all those conditions exist, but it's sort of not my dad used to say to me, it's how you play the points, right? It's how you construct it. And it's how you take advantage of things that make all the difference in the world. And there's a ton of creativity that goes into kind of how you construct a point or how a point evolves in front of you. So and how you react to it. Right?


Atif Qadir  06:30

Yeah, because it's a this idea that it's not simply action and reaction. It's the the back and forth and the interplay that's necessary. So your mom also played a big role in your growth as a designer, because you talk about that?


Ann Rolland  06:44

Absolutely. So my mom was a fashion designer and production kind of her expertise was really in sort of taking designs and figuring out how to produce them in a particular way, very sort of architectural mindset in terms of fashion. So fashion, for me, was the first kind of introduction into thinking about human proportions, and the human psyche and the human condition, and how fashion would affect people, essentially. So that was one aspect of definitely an influence on me as an architect just thinking about the human condition, the human psyche, and the human element. That session was being created for abstract. I think it definitely taught me about color and materiality. I can remember many dinnertime conversations where we were talking about, like a particular piece of fabric, and how if it stretched on the bias, it would drape one way or another. And so gave me this real sense of materiality for sure. To this day, I can't look at a plaid shirt without noticing like does do the plants line up and do the pockets? You know, are they askew? Or do the plants line up and at the seams where the sides come together? That's like a really expensive shirt is where the plaid comes together at the side seams. Actually, most manufacturers don't bother to do that. I was certainly at the side. So it taught me a lot about joinery and craft as well. So those dinnertime conversations definitely included just the nuance of like how a particular way of creating a scene could transform a garment, or whether you use a zipper versus a button to it for closure. So those were just constant filters that I was looking at life through in many ways, as a kid, and just hearing these conversations and being really interested in just through that lens, always looking at things. And then the other interesting part of especially with my mom, because the business that my parents had spanned, they did a lot of what was called Private Label, they would create garments that were carried in various different department stores. And the price point went from JC Penney's to Saks Fifth Avenue. So how you actually created the garment and laid out even the pattern of a garment on stacks and stacks of layers of fabric could really affect the over overall outcome of what the garment would cost. And my mom had a particular expertise and really knowing how to lay out patterns, using buttons versus zippers versus the way seaming was done it she had a particular expertise in doing that. I think that really always was on my mind and really, as an architect still is very much has she's influenced me tremendously in terms of that.


Atif Qadir  09:57

What it seems like from the way that you've described your extreme As a tennis player, and then someone whose family life has revolved around this incredible business, is the ability to think on these two scales of the fine detail of the button, but also of the marketing strategy, for example, for the clothing, or the specific point that will that you would win in a game. And as well, what is the larger strategy for how you can win the entire match. So I do think there's a lot of cool stuff there. And then so you grew up on the East Coast, you went to Washington University, for architecture school, and then your previous firm, talk to us about what you did there, and how exactly that transition to effects collaborative happened.


Ann Rolland  10:39

So I started working at a firm called Buttrick point, Inverness and firm actually no longer exists, but it was just this amazing place. Because there were three partners at the time. And a large sort of drafting room and the partners kind of set separately in the drafting room was filled with like late 20 year old somethings, and just all sorts of different mostly cultural educational projects. And what was great about that environment was that Sam White, who did most of the hiring for the firm just had this knack of hiring, really interesting, just really smart people. And we kind of just grew up together and learned by helping one another is incredibly collaborative environment. And to this day, I'm still in touch with like, so many of the people that I worked with there, and many have gone on to just amazing careers and having firms of their own and just success it various different firms, but we really, really learn from one another, and kind of taught one another how to sort of evolve many ways.


Atif Qadir  11:58

And then one of those people in particular was your current colleague, Sylvia Smith, when she was at your current firm, ethics collaborative. She was an important part of your transition to the firm. Could you talk about that, too?


Ann Rolland  12:10

Yeah. So Sofia, was not at Buttrick. White and Bert is but what happened actually was interesting, I got a call one day from a structural engineer. And he said to me that Sylvia was, you know, he, he knew of somebody who he thinks I should meet. And he said, Sylvia was starting the cultural, educational practice at what was then Fox and fowl, actually. So it was even the predecessor to ethics, Val. So he said, I think you guys would be a real really amazing compliment to one another, I think you should meet. So Sylvia called me up. And we met and she was starting this cultural educational practice. And I had been at Bridgeport and Virtus for about 10 years and kind of thought I was ready, you know, to try something different. And the interesting part was Foxtel, at the time was just finishing up for Times Square. And four times square was one of the first green skyscrapers, certainly in the US, if not in the world. And there was a lot of buzz about Fox and fell out the time because of the sort of they're out sort of innovation and looking into how buildings could be a lot more sustainable. And that was something that I was really interested in. I knew I was interested in that even before I went to a bunch of boring Berta. So when Silvia called, she was trying to create this new studio and the fox and pals sort of innovative lens that they were looking at architecture through just made the whole situation seem really right for me to join Silvia.


Atif Qadir  13:51

So to see education practice, that's the focus or that you have at the current firm in the the project that we're talking about is an integration project. That's q 404. So give us the big picture of it. Like, how big is it? What are the key elements and like how you tied everything together?


Ann Rolland  14:08

Yeah, sure, sure. So just like the stats on it, it serves about 1000 students, square footage wise, it's about 145 gross square feet. And the buildings, five storeys tall, which we'll come back to that the five story story in a minute, but the things that really influenced the design of the building, certainly the site had a lot to do with it. So the zoning on the site dictated in some ways like the material that we used, it was the way that city planning had written the zoning ordinance. It really influenced the whole sort of Hunters Point south toward a red brick kind of environment. And there was a portion of the zoning that required that we hide all the mechanical units from view if you were down on the street. So we knew that we had to screen the mechanical units in some way. And then we fell into by location, there was an easement that was running on part of our site was an easement for the Midtown Tunnel. That was kind of the zoning aspect of sort of what influenced the design, the actual site was an L shaped kind of site in the L that would be a residential tower then emerged, kind of around our L shaped site. So what that told us that we were we access to the perimeter or especially along the L shape of the, you know, where we're at a budded, the residential building was going to have limited access to daylight, and that really daylight aspect was limited to access to daylight was limited to the street facades,


Atif Qadir  15:53

which was struck with the school environment, you won't have light everywhere


Ann Rolland  15:57

it is and the SCA actually mandates that every classroom have access to natural daylight, which is great, our codes don't require it, but the SCA does.


Atif Qadir  16:07

And for our listeners, sta stands for School Construction Authority.


Ann Rolland  16:10

The other thing that was a challenge about the site was that the main leg of the site was 100 foot in depth. And that's not great for school planning. It really you want more like 65 or 70 feet for the width of a school or depth of the school, right? Because you have classroom, quarter classroom, and 100 feet is when you get really, really deep long classrooms. And they're not really conducive to great learning environments if you do that. So that was a challenge, we had to think about how we were going to deal with that. But the sort of really great thing about the site was that it was sitting right on the East River, right across from midtown Manhattan. So we had the most spectacular views from this site that we just knew we had to capitalize on. So the test fit at the School Construction Authority typically will hand you a test fit just they've already investigated whether the program will actually fit on the site. And when they gave us the test fit, their test fit actually was a six storey building. And the reason for that was that they had created a courtyard between the residential building and the school on the deep way that 100 Foot Leg they had set it set the building back from the residential. And what that did was it gave them the ideal planning scenario of setting, you know, the 70 feet, and it gave them a lot more access to natural daylight. But the problem with that was that we knew that the those classrooms that were facing the courtyard were also going to face into residential units. So that's that wasn't ideal. So a couple of things that we did sort of, to sort of circumvent the constraints, but also use the site wisely, it really came down to some server planning strategies, right. So what we did was we took the large assembly spaces, and located though, so the largest sembly spaces for the school, or the auditorium, the gymnasium and the cafeteria. And what we did was we placed those in the 100 foot depth. And that really helped us take advantage of the depth of the site that which wasn't quite ideal, but what it did was so we didn't have a courtyard, we move the building, and a butted right up against the residential building, put the auditorium at the heart of the school, the gym was below and a little bit deeper. So we extended out to the street front, and the cafeteria was above. And because we didn't need that much depth, we set the building back which gave them the added benefit of having this like terraced space at the top of the building, which looked back over Midtown Manhattan with these spectacular views of the river and midtown Manhattan. So we also placed all of the services up against the L shape of the residential building where we had no access to daylight, so the bathrooms, mechanical spaces, things of that nature that just didn't need the access to daylight. So so that's how we dealt with the sort of the dark space of the owl. And then the classrooms actually got wrapped around the auditorium space which were was on the third and fourth floors and connected that intermediate school and the high school, but the classrooms were wrapped around on all the street fronts. So the result of that did the just this this like planning In just sort of really thoughtful planning, instead of a six storey building, we were five storey building. And what that meant was that we were no longer high rise six storeys, we were highrise. five storeys, we were not a high rise. So the initial budget for the project that was based on the six storey building was 72 million. Because we took a whole story off the building, and actually had a lot less perimeter wall to the building are the so the budget for the building was 72. The bids came in at 63 million, which is a huge savings for UN Yeah, it's something that 15% The other thing is like there wasn't a compromise, right? It was we actually got a got a benefit, which was this wonderful terrace at the top of the building, which was invented program almost, but just such an asset for the school. And for the kids, they could go outside to eat, they could go outside to study, it was just sort of invented program that came out of just this really sort of just sensible planning of the building. The other thing about q 375, we get asked a lot about by our colleagues in the industry is sort of like how did you get that sculptural kind of, if you look at the building, it's got some angular pieces to it. And the angular pieces actually were derived because at the ground floor, we had to pull back the building to follow the Midtown Tunnel easement and it was at an angle. So we just follow the angle pull the bed pull the building in and cantilever the building over the easement which we were allowed to do. But at the ground floor, the foundation had to sort of stay outside of it. So that sculpted one facade of the building. And then at the top, we just we created this canopy over the terrace, and these parapets that literally were formed and shaped to protect the view to the mechanical. It's so the whole building is very sculptural in nature. But it's completely derived on this idea of just meeting zoning, essentially. So just practical solutions to you know, sort of constraints that I think we needed something that was just unique and special.


Atif Qadir  22:28

That's something so refreshing in comparison to architects that choose to have the sculpture ality of their buildings be the highest order as opposed to that being responsive to some actual condition of their clients. And that's really cool. So the height aspects really interested in because the school that I went to was three stories. I know plenty of students that are friends that have gone to school in the suburbs, it's one story or two stories. How do you make five manageable when it comes to things like circulation?


Ann Rolland  22:57

Well, actually So yeah, that's a great question. Because when the school was six storeys, that's sort of outside of the usually they say, five storeys is a really walkable building kids can go up and down five storeys. You can imagine like five storeys is sort of a lot to do during, you know, between classes. Did you have


Atif Qadir  23:17

a minus one and then a plus four, is that what it ended up being? So it's not like five,


Ann Rolland  23:23

we couldn't go down. We have we have no seller because of soil conditions and things of that nature and the floodplain. So we did not go down we would have had to made a bath mat by bathtub, we only went up went up. But the interesting part about the five stories in lieu of the six stories is that it also created this really walkable school. So what we did was the ground floor and the fifth floor, or the specialty floors. So we had art and gym on the ground floor. And we had the on the top floor where science specialties and the cafeteria. So kids are typically only going to those spaces once a day at best if not a couple of times a week. But the heart of the school was two three and four. The second floor was for a program called D 75, which is a special education. And the Intermediate School was on three and the high school was on for and again the auditorium space connected the intermediate and the high school so the intermediate students entered the auditorium from the third floor, rake seating up to the fourth floor for the high school. So very easy access from either grade level either division level for that auditorium. So it was really a three storey building within a five storey building for the daily activities


Atif Qadir  24:58

and then because there are so many people are using this building. Some things that may not be like front of mind for our listeners, things like air change requirements means that there's a very thoughtful and heavy requirements for MEP in a building like this. You mentioned on the exterior, that you were able to have a very beautiful solution to the mechanical units that were on the roof. Were there any other elegant solutions that you had internally within the building or elsewhere related to these kind of heavy programmatic needs that you needed?


Ann Rolland  25:31

Yeah, I think the other thing that I would mention is just and they said much to the SCBAs credit, this is part of their requirements, which is all of the circulation spaces have access to natural daylight. And yeah, and some of the views from the corridors or best views to the city or to you know, a frame of view of the Williamsburg Bridge are they fit frame of view of the UN in particular, right. So then just having natural daylight in those spaces in between, which just make the space, a whole lot more cheerful, joyful. And then I would also say the material palette that we chose for this school, I think we didn't want to kind of dumb it down for the kids, we wanted the material palette to have a level of sophistication, because we feel like if you treat the kids, as though they're, they're not children, and you treat them with this level of kind of dignity and respect, they behave that way, to some extent. So the material palette that we chose was, you know, the walls were primarily white with a very light gray floor, and then pops of sort of orange and yellow along the way, just to highlight very specific aspects of the design.


Atif Qadir  26:58

I think there's something really, there's something really beautiful in that idea. Because if you do not, if you're not raised have means the idea of what good design means feels like something that is for somebody else, and not for you, or it's this thing that you see on that one vacation that your family goes on, you're like Washington, DC, or somewhere not very special. And I think for me, particularly the sculptural, like the sculptural aspects of the school that I went through was one of the first things that made me see that there is something beyond the simple function of putting a building together back in and make people exactly what you were talking about, that can make people inspired to do great things. I think that's really neat that you were able to accomplish and still be $10 million below your budget. Yeah,


Ann Rolland  27:48

let's see, even the exterior, the material we chose for the exterior of the building, like the interior is very sort of white and with great places for display and things like that. So that the what's on display is not a color palette that somebody else chose, but it's the artwork or the scholarly work that these students are doing. The exteriors of the building, as I said, the zoning kind of really influenced you definitely yeah, to use masonry. But it kind of really alluded to this sort of red brick, didn't want to do the quintessential Red School red brick schoolhouse. So we chose this really beautiful charcoal warm, brick, iron spot brick. And remember that we're right on the river. So the sun is bouncing off the river onto this iron spot. And kindness has this quality of like light and shimmer to it as well. And more of a kinetic energy to the facade as well, because it changes as the day goes, you know, sun's rising in the east. So the facade can be somewhat flat in the morning. But as it starts setting and the light starts hitting it across the river, as the sun is setting, it just has this very kinetic energy to it. And then the exterior, took out some of the elements from the interior, where we had just certain colors, just highlighting parts and pieces of the building to sort of articulate moments, rather than the whole thing being this red brick schoolhouse.


Atif Qadir  29:29

And then from the perspective of being an architect turned developer, I didn't pay that much attention to this specific materials that I was using until I actually became a developer because I was paying for all of the materials. Could you talk about some of the really big wins you had on the interior in terms of like the specific tiles you use or specific flooring finishes that perhaps our listeners might be able to note for their own renovations their homes, for example?


Ann Rolland  29:56

Yeah, so that's very prescribed by the CCA. Oh, interesting. It is. Yeah, it is. So I think you and I have talked about this previously, like, there's the SCA has tested things and vetted things. And it's not just from kind of a cost point of view, but from an operational point of view, right. Like the people that maintain these buildings are part of a union. And they have very kind of specific requirements in terms of operational, the operational aspect of the building. So the materials that you use in the building and the sort of, they really are tested over time, remember, the SCA has put up hundreds of buildings. And they've learned from each one and the to the SCS credit, they really have every time out, try to improve on what they're doing. And address, end user needs durability functionality. So it's a kid of parts like and I'm very often asked by my colleagues, like, doesn't that port your creativity? But member it takes me back to the tennis court? No, it doesn't at all. Because tennis court, I feel like I'm a creative genius on the tennis court. Because I have so many options, and so many, it's in the moment that I have to make a decision and create something out of it. So because I have a kid of parts, it doesn't work, my creativity inspires my creativity. And it's how you deploy those things in a really artful craft full way, and use the kid of parts and celebrate them Don't you know, if you want to fight against them, you're just not going to be successful as my sense. But if you embrace them, and you say it, these are the lines on the tennis court, then it's not as overwhelming, I would say,


Atif Qadir  31:55

I want to dig a little bit more about the SCA, because our listeners may not be familiar with this group. So the School Construction Authority, as you said, it's the largest builder of schools in the entire country, government agency, and I would imagine that many people might think that's slow moving, ineffectual bureaucracy. And I think that's okay for me to say because I would appointed role in city government as well. But I think that what you're describing from the pieces that you've talked about, in terms of them as a client coming with a test fit model for what it is that they want, for having an entire guidebook of the specifications of the materials they've tested in US sounds like a very effectual government agency, and one that has a thought and planned in detail. Could you talk more about the experience of working with the specific people from the SBA and and that process beyond the things that they gave you?


Ann Rolland  32:47

Yeah, no, absolutely. So to me, working with government agency, I don't think differently between, okay, they're public. So they're, you know, this, then, you know, private sector is that I, every client I have ever worked with, has their own culture has their own DNA and has their own kind of approach to things. And the SCA is no different. They are, I have, I guess, a lot of respect for what they've been able to achieve as an organization. And I will say that the people I have met at the SCA, from administration and contracts all the way to the head of design and construction to my project manager. The one thing that I can say is that they care deeply about what they do, because they understand the benefits to the children, ultimately, and they understand that, I'm going to say it's sort of like, to me, there's like nothing more important than educating the next generation. Absolutely. And we, as a society have an obligation to do that, and provide an excellence in public education. And I think that people at the FCA share that kind of passion. So, to me, we're on the same path. I really respect all those people at the SCA, and I haven't met one that I have, I would say to you, they're just dialing it in. They're not they care. So and I would also say, I mean, I've had someone who I would say has been a great mentor to me, you know, in terms of post Barrett, who was she retired about two years ago, three years ago, but she was really somebody that just inspired me. And Bruce Barrett was the vice president for design and construction at the SCA. And she really, I think, taught me how to kind of work within certain parameters, but create great architecture and she she led that effort, right she was a champion for bringing in, you know, architects who she felt were going to be allies in her quest to do that. Our project manager, Deborah Spicer, Gilman, Yeoman is Deborah Gilman Spicer is just an ally, by every means, and then our ops manager who is the person that actually gets us paid, Althea, daily, we just have great relationships with these people. So for me, working with the SCA, is just not a chore. It's I deal with a bureaucracy, of course, and but I think it's also changing your expectations, right? If you think that you're going to get paid in 60 days, right, or 30 days, or 60 days, you're not. So you have to just you accept it. So you learn the system. And then you work within the system. And it does take longer, and it's just something that you accept as part of working with that particular client. But it's also a commitment that I think certainly affects collaborative and my partners understand and also embrace, they understand it, and they want to be doing this kind of work. So we do the best we can with it.


Atif Qadir  36:21

No, I think then you also do a lot of private school work. How would you compare the experience in terms of the parts and the things that you're given and the process, in this experience, the essay versus your private schoolwork in New York City,


Ann Rolland  36:37

I would say they inform one another. And so there's so many, like I mentioned this before, but the SCA is tested all these systems and tested the materials and tested the durability, and they kind of know what's going to work. So we learned from that. And we use that in our private sector work, I think the private sector work with the big difference in the private sector work is that the planning and the programming of spaces is a lot less prescribed. So we're able to do things that are probably a little bit more innovative and creative in the way that we, you know, the SCA, you're kind of, in many ways confined to a double loaded corridor. With the corridor just being a passage from one place to the next with private sector clients, we're really interested in sort of how to make sure that those spaces are not just spaces in between, but spaces that can be programmed and used creatively for learning, essentially. And I think that the programming and planning aspect of private sector work is the piece that is where it really is different than the private sector.


Atif Qadir  38:01

Sector. Take a break here and let our listeners know that some really great American building podcasts and news, we're really excited that architect Raphael Polly, will be joining us early on in this season. So make sure to subscribe to the podcast and don't miss out on any other amazing interviews like the one today. We have with me Roland as well.


Ann Rolland  38:23

They do have to tell you something. I understand that Raphael is a tennis player. Oh, he is? Oh, yes. And so we have a mutual friend in common who plays tennis with him. I think it's every Friday morning. And Michael is trying to get us into a doubles game. So roughing up, I'm coming for you.


Atif Qadir  38:43

I think we might have to do American podcast hosted special and we'll do the voiceover of the game. And we'll see how that goes. I want to take the context of what we are talking about the school and take a big picture. So many of our listeners have kids of their own. And I'm sure they're wondering what does the school today and tomorrow the day after actually look like? There's so many issues that have played out with schools and probably played out in very ugly ways. In the media, a lot of that might have to do with a grievance to grievance of, frankly, people with privilege about what they are obligated to have or what they deserve to have with schools. So schools are what this was one particular that's been I think, a lightning rod for many different folks. So could you talk about the specific issues when you distill it down to a core sense that needs to be addressed in order to make school environments safe for people to return to if they have not gone back to full time school? Or for those that are in school full time or part time and are wondering what those specific things that need to happen on a checkbox basis in order to have us go to the next part of our school experience.


Ann Rolland  39:51

Yeah, I mean, the access really exposed to the inequities and the injustice says, the haves and the have nots. And I think it came out in terms of childcare, access to childcare, access to nutrition, access to technology, and I think also this sort of access to quality teaching. And those were all kind of, I think, blended together. And for me, it's like, I think of that as a really positive thing that it has emerged so overtly, because now I think we can't avoid but to address it, like it's it no longer can you can pull up the edge of the carpet and sweep it under. Can't do that. Okay. So I think the biggest thing, obviously, is mechanical systems, right? We've got to learn how to redesign our mechanical systems so that ventilation is there's higher quality of air quality in in our schools. But I have to tell you, I am not sure yet. What else will come of this in terms of what else will emerge because I really feel like schools are places of refuge, and especially for those kids that maybe didn't, are not as privileged. And they're places of refuge, both physically and psychologically. So my sense is, we've got to open up schools again. And other than sort of this idea of better air quality in the schools and cleaning and things of that nature. In some ways, I feel a little bit like we don't know enough, yet. We haven't opened the schools yet enough to know, really, like, what are we truly going to have to do? But that said, there are some there are a couple of things that I think will that have emerged out of this. And I think that we know that schools are more than just a place where kids are going to gain knowledge. They're there because they also are, they're a place where kids are learning to socialize and become citizens of the world. And I don't know that you can do that remotely. So I think we, there's definitely this understanding of the need to open schools again. So I think what's on my mind right now about the future and thinking about schools. And I think this is true, whether there was a pandemic or not, I think about how we can make schools more adaptable. And that don't confuse that with flexible, because I think we've become too flexible oriented, which is just, you know, like everything should do everything.


Atif Qadir  42:49

And it really is a multipurpose space.


Ann Rolland  42:53

That's not what I mean by adaptable. What I mean by adaptable is thinking ahead strategizing ahead a little bit on how each space could be designed to become or transformed to be something else when the need arises. And that need could arise, because there's a flood and the school becomes a place where people refuge during a flood or all sorts of things. So simple things that like how do we think about creating classrooms that are laboratories versus classrooms? So think about that, if you simply add a sink to every classroom, all of a sudden, and also the other trends in education, in my mind is the overlaps of different subject matters. So why do we silo, we're going to teach math here. And we're going to teach social studies here. And we're going to teach science here and art here. I think the ability to have an increasing spaces that actually will embrace the overlap of subjects, and allow teachers to do experiments during social science classes, that sort of tap almost, you know, look at ecology or things of that nature. So I think simple things like making sure the infrastructure is there, you have the infrastructure, like the plumbing infrastructure, and the mechanical infrastructure, so that those things can happen as time happens without having to completely redesign or interrupt the school. I think the same thing with assembly spaces with gymnasium can actually morph into for maybe a week at a time, this incredible Makerspace of sorts and you get all the division together in one space and have like this incredible social science experiment or something of that nature. So I think that's what I mean by adaptable. I think it's putting in the infrastructure in the bones of the building, whether that's structurally making Sure you can accommodate different structural loads or whether you have the mechanical, electrical, plumbing background infrastructure, so that it's easy to plug those in when you need to. And then the other thing I would say just that, again, it's not necessary. It's something that's been with me, sort of my entire career and doing schools is just for some kids in our city school is a refuge for sure, it is the place that they go to sort of get away from situations that aren't as what we would like them to be. So I always think about how I can make schools feel joyful, and energizing, and also feel safe. And now we have the not just safe from intruders, but safe from by virus intruders. And somehow kids perceive all that. And I don't know, I tend to think it doesn't. I'll tell you kind of a story about safety in schools. But I don't think that kids feel safer because they're walking through metal detectors. I think they feel safer because there's a human being greeting them at the door that says, I care about you. I'll tell you this story. I do the Hebrew day school. And we went through analysis, extensive analysis about how kids who are going to enter the school, making it bombproof shooter proof, just all sorts of things. And at the end of the day, the thing that they resorted back to what they were already doing, and that was, they had guards at the front door that actually had guns in their holsters and whatnot. But the kids could not see that. And when the kids entered in the morning, that guard at the door, it was just Charlie or it was Bob or you know, an every kid as they walked in, knew them as their as the greeter, not the bouncer, but the greeter. And one of the most significant issues at that particular school. And this is true of private schools in New York is kidnapping, not intruders. So


Atif Qadir  47:27

people they know like they're like one parent versus the other parent or grandparent.


Ann Rolland  47:32

Yes, yeah, absolutely. No metal detectors going to protect against that. But these guards at the front door, knew every kid knew every parent. And as the kid would enter the school, they would look the kid in the eye and say good morning, and they could tell when something was wrong. So they would call up to the office and say, something's not feeling right today. And it was just this great way of dealing with security and safety. And they dealt with it on a kid by kid basis. And it's sort of what frightens me about, you know, I'm hearing like, oh, we can have school in a virtual world, we've tried it, we now know we can do it. And I just think that there's nothing that can replace that human element of being together, socializing, learning how to play and learn, and even learning about conflict. And you're not, you have to be together to do that. And I think you can teach every subject in the world right and have a kid that's really proficient knowledge wise. But if they're not Proficient, Proficient in their socialization skills, I think we've failed as a society to educate them. And so I do think that we're going to be back in school,


Atif Qadir  48:55

I think that if I were to take away from really amazing feedback that you gave, and perspective, on a foundational level, there is the reality of the meat potatoes of it, which is MRP systems, and mechanical systems and physical systems being up to snuff.


Ann Rolland  49:13

And I think a lot of it will be operational, operational, cleaning, and purging the building and things of that nature. And then the second


Atif Qadir  49:21

level of it's talking about what are the ways in which we rethink education in terms of making spaces be able to serve multifunctions by thoughtful design ahead of time? Or what are the ways that we teach that is more responsive and reflective of norms? And I think that the top of the pyramid is the one that's really fascinating, is how do we do all of that without losing the humanity in this process? And I think that's the one that I don't think that yes, there'll be expensive and hard challenges the first two, but I think it's the top the first the last one The human touch the human aspect that we won't, you won't be able to succeed without that piece right there.


Ann Rolland  50:04

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think we've all, at some level experienced it, or you know, ourselves. This hasn't been easy on anybody.


Atif Qadir  50:15

And I think what's really interesting is you mentioned earlier, the idea that the pandemic wasn't, is not the beginning of the end of issues of problematic issues in school. It's raised the entire carpet. Now you see what's been put under that carpet? For so long? I think particularly what I find interesting is the underlying issue of technology that you mentioned, yes, you can put you find the money. I've had every kid's hand. But if you don't have the fast internet, at home, or in that particular area, what food is that going to be? And I think the fact that broadband is now considered a core infrastructure and part of the infrastructure bill that's being negotiated on Capitol Hill, I feel that there is a connection between these two, this reality, everyone in America has seen it through the lens of schoolchildren, about how important broadband is throughout the country. So I think that this might be the beginning of something much bigger in terms of addressing those issues. So that when you work on projects after this one, could you talk about a few of the things that you take away? We I think we talked about the relationship with the school and particular mentors and people that you've that you've had the opportunity to work with? What are the what's the kit of parts that you take away from this project as you go on to the next to the next?


Ann Rolland  51:30

From two 375? That's a interesting question. I you know, it's not like there was any, I think you 375 was more the result of how we work. Certainly, I would say how Sylvia and I, and one of my other partners who was involved with this Nick Garrison, I think we are always interested in how to take perceived challenges and constraints, and have them emerge as an opportunity. So I don't think there's anything in particular with q3 q4, or four that says to me, like, okay, that piece, you know, okay, I'm gonna apply that over here or whatever. It's more of a thought process and an approach. And the takeaway is that we're really proud of q4 for, for the process that we use to design when the thought process we use to design because we think it is incredibly successful result. But it's the result of things, deep, deep, deep beliefs in the fact that if you look for the opportunity, within the constraint, or you know how to craft a narrative out of a kit of parts, rather than just slap it on and apply it, right, that some really good things can happen. From a design point of view. One thing I'll say is that we were lucky enough to get the sister project to this prior to the intermediate and high school, which is we're just finishing up construction on the primary school for the neighborhood. Oh, excellent, which is just down the street to 375. And I will say that our mentality about Q 375 was to treat it as though it was a sibling. So there is that relationship. So q 375. For us to similar material palette, the idea of the kinetic energy of the facade, and sort of the day, sort of passing over the building and having the facade have sort of a reaction to the environment, sun and the water around it, definitely, were things that we took and apply to q 375. And also just this idea of joyful, fun, energetic place to be and not again, not dumbing down the environment for these kids, making them feel like they have a real sense of ownership of the building because it speaks to them not because it's colorful and fancy, but because it is the right scale, the right proportion, the lights coming in. There's a moment that just sort of addressed them.


Atif Qadir  54:34

So it sounds like you guys, a lot of your group has a lot of good work to do. I'm going to ask because so many of our listeners are students themselves. Are you hiring?


Ann Rolland  54:46

We are not hiring at the moment. But we we always are open to talent. And you know what I would say about that is on our website, there's a process for applying for work. I'm a real proponent of never waiting to we have a need to interview people. We like to meet people, we like to kind of know who it is we want to hire in advance of hiring them. And it's part of our sort of just innate cultures, that ethics Collaborative has never been a firm that is comfortable hiring and firing or guarant. You know, building up and building down, we feel a great sense of commitment, especially to juniors, oh, it's that mentorship. And before we bring you into the firm, we want to make a commitment to you that we're going to get you the right education, but that this is a long term relationship. So it's my way of saying that we're not hiring at the moment, but we're always looking for good people.


Atif Qadir  55:51

For the longest. Like, it's important that early relationships is the biggest part of finding a good fit. So we're unfortunately at the end of our time, and it's been spectacular talking to you. Thank you so much for joining us today, on the American building podcast. It's been a pleasure. And if you want to hear the behind the scenes stories of how iconic buildings in our country where designed and built subscribe to this podcast on Spotify, iTunes, Google, or wherever it is that you listen. So we all know real estate is a really tough industry to make it. So how can professionals stand out and make a name for themselves in today's world, you can hear from me from the team and Michael Graves and many of our spectacular guests. And season two, including and on what we did to make it where we are, you can grab the exclusive guide that includes our tips. It's the seven tips on how to stand out in your field. And that's available at American building podcast.com. And finally, we live in the richest country in the history of humankind. We must reach beyond the boundaries that we see and the boundaries that we create in order to build homes and communities today and Roland I have made donations to the amazing nonprofit non traditional employment for women, which trains women in the building trades, elevating them in their careers and helping to deliver financial independence. I encourage you our listeners to support this organization and a worthwhile work as well. My name is author father, and this has been American building podcast by Michael Graves.