Kim Yao of Architecture Research Office | Milgard Hall in Tacoma | A School for Everyone
Transcript
Announcer 00:06
What goes into making an iconic building in America? What are the stories and who are the people behind the next generation of architecture? If your work touches the real estate industry in any way, or you're just curious about what goes into one of a kind cities and towns all across our country, join us on the American building podcast. In season two, we learn about everything from skyscrapers to single family homes from the famous and soon to be famous designers and developers responsible for them. This season focuses particularly on the pandemic and how our buildings will change in response. Our sponsor is the iconic design firm Michael Graves architecture and design. And now your host award winning architect turned entrepreneur, Atif Qadir, AIA
Atif Qadir 01:04
This is American building, and I'm your host author, Atif Qadir. We are recording from the historic home of world renowned architect Michael Graves in Princeton, New Jersey, check out this amazing space for yourself at the Michael Graves architecture and design YouTube channel. Now let's build something. today. Our guest is Kim Yao. She is a partner at architecture research office, also known as a borough in New York City. borough was honored by the American Institute of Architects as the firm of the year in 2020. So congrats for that Kim. She teaches at Columbia University's Graduate School of Architecture, Planning and preservation. With the gobs of free time that she has between those two endeavors. She also serves on the board of the Center for Architecture and on the board of AIA New York, where she was the immediate past president, we will be talking about Milgard Hall, the 55,000 square foot interdisciplinary STEM building at the University of Washington Tacoma campus. It combines the School of Engineering and Technology and the mill guard business school, as well as the Global Innovation and Design Lab together. So essentially a hub for entrepreneurship on its campus. This project is currently in development, with construction expected to start in the summer of this year and to complete in 2023. So thank you so much for being here with us, Kim,
Kim Yao 02:31
Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to spend a little time with you today. And to also talk about, like this project in particular, because I think it's really interesting for a lot of reasons. And so we're really happy to have the chance to share and speak with you.
Atif Qadir 02:46
Excellent. This is actually our first university building. So I'm sure that we'll be able to get a different perspective than say, any of the other amazing buildings we've learned about so far this season. Yeah, absolutely. I think we're looking forward to that. So you grew up in the Pacific Northwest in Oregon? What influence did that have on your personal design aesthetic?
Kim Yao 03:08
That is such a good question. I think that one thing about growing up out there is that you do appreciate a really direct connection between buildings, and design, and architecture in general and their context. So a sense of like place and tying to place, which I think is also really important in terms of this project. So I think there's that aspect of it. And I, I mean, I also this was sounds crazy, but I just love being around the kind of vibrancy of a city environment. And so even though that's not such an obvious connection to the northwest, necessarily, for me, it was probably a big part of my interest in both coming to New York for school, and then ultimately my interest in architecture in general.
Atif Qadir 03:54
Absolutely. And you moved to the east coast for college. And then after completing your master's degree in architecture at Princeton, which is right down the block from the graves office, you went directly to work at Arrow, and you've been there for 24 years. I just wanna say I do not know anyone that's really for the backlog. So looking back over this amazing arc of time you've been there, what are the highlights of your time at Arrow?
Kim Yao 04:21
It's funny, like, you think about projects and projects have such long digestions, like building is such a slow process compared to some of the other design fields. So it's interesting like for me, highlights really have to do with the people and the team like the opportunity to work with certain clients. I think about my time in the office almost like generationally when I was a, you know, an intern in Agra architected, kind of sort of moving up the ranks until of course, like becoming a partner and what that journey was like, and so highlights for me really have to do with them. The projects are the core of what we do, and you want to see the work, but we spend our time with the people. The buildings are for people. And so I think for me, a lot of it has to do with like, the project of the office, which is about who we are and why we care about what we're doing. I think as much as the final architecture,
Atif Qadir 05:18
I think that that's very apt, because the whole reason that you became an architect was you wanted to improve life. So that's the reason why, right? Yeah. Now, on the other side, when you think of the people that are living in and working in and spending time in the buildings that you're designing, do you feel and to what extent do you feel that you've been able to accomplish that goal that you set out for yourself as an architect.
Kim Yao 05:41
So I think that we really focus on listening to our clients, and working with them as collaborators, and defining goals and principles for a project that resonate with them that are about their goals, not about our goals, as architects or as the architecture, it was just really important and really important distinction. So I actually, I wouldn't want to be presumptuous about it. But I think we have been able to do that with much of our work. And so design and to kind of a belief in the capacity of design to meaningfully improve people's existences I think is what drives our industry. And it's a really important thing to kind of as a touchstone to keep in mind.
Atif Qadir 06:24
So I think the ability to touch people's lives and to enact that change you're describing is particularly possible on projects of large scales. And this is a project of a large scale. So the University of Washington is a major public university system, and it serves 5300 students annually in this particular campus. And that is largely a population that is working class and includes immigrants, and the university, understands and respects that and has partnerships with many community organizations. What were your impressions of the university at the outset of the project?
Kim Yao 07:01
Great question. So I've been familiar with University of Washington since I was a kid. So starting this project is the first time I ever had been to the Tacoma campus, even though I've driven through Tacoma tents, tons of times, right. And I think what struck me from day one, was the fact that this particular campus is serving a community that they have, in a way helped support and build to like, they're a key kind of player in terms of investing in a local community, specifically with things like the School of Engineering and Technology, or the Milgard School of Business, like these programs that are in this building. And so I was really struck by a very down to earth straightforward approach very honest, like we need our buildings to perform a certain way. They are not building buildings, like every other year on this campus. So the buildings have to be flexible, they have to be long lasting, they have to be efficient, but they also have to be aspirational. They have to be innovative, there's a really high bar set for how it will be community oriented and community facing. And that was the other thing that I was just incredibly impressed by a week is the university's commitment to community partnership. And that's like the underpinning of the concept of this building is to say, it's about our students and our faculty, but community for them is quite literally, partners outside of the university. So private enterprise could be commercial partners, but partners that they work with, to actually expand the education of the students and to make really direct connections with the broader community, for the students exposure to what careers they can have ultimately, like it really helps connect future employers with students and help grow industries, I think in this area. So I think it's really do sense that they're you sense it from how they talk about the building, how they talk about the campus, the universities priorities. It's very focused on this campus. And these students this population versus how they might think focus, we're talking about Project 70, Seattle campus or the Bothell campus like other campuses they have in their system. And I think that's really important.
Atif Qadir 09:20
So a or O has also done work for several Ivy League universities as well with nearly limitless resources. How did your experience as a designer on this project for the University of Washington Tacoma, compare in that regard to the private university clients?
Kim Yao 09:37
So at the end of the day, I would say that what I've been incredibly impressed by is it in all of those contexts, both private and public, there is an absolutely kind of fundamental belief in the appropriate to use of resources and a commitment of resources, to the highest priorities in a project, and maybe the priorities, the way the institution talks about the priorities, and what that priority set is, might be a little bit different. And maybe that has to do with the program, or the time or the type of project. But we've had the good fortune of working with, as you noted diverse institutions and universities around the country. And it's incredibly impressive how there's a really committed belief in investing in capital program, right of a campus and doing it in a way where it enriches both the physical built environment, environment of that campus, but more importantly, the intangible kind of social dynamics of people who are teaching and learning on those campuses.
Atif Qadir 10:54
In this particular project, there was a very, there's a specific, very detailed, very robust scope that went into the project and your firm worked very hard to put together, could you talk about what you were asked to do in the initial prompt, and how that perhaps changed over the course of the design process?
Kim Yao 11:11
Sure. So I mean, one aspect of that initial prop is that it's a design build delivery method. And then I know we can get into that a little bit more if you want to. So that means we're a subcontractor to the construction manager. And we're directly in contract with the owner and the construction manager and us as a core team, like delivering the project. So we are part of the design builders team, essentially, which is that the construction manager, which is Anderson construction, in this particular instance. So that was one component of the RFP process, which when it's a design build project, it means that sometimes that process looks a little bit different than it would be if it were a more traditional delivery method. So that's kind of one thing. But from a programmatic standpoint, I think that the building, there is an aspiration, to create an and a building that embrace this mix of programs that it will host. So again, the School of Engineering and Technology, which is a new program, this will be that this school exists, but basically civil and mechanical engineering are new disciplines being represented in the school, these spaces don't exist on their campus. And it's huge, hugely important in terms of that community piece that we were talking about. But it's this very unusual mix of lab spaces for in faculty spaces for that school, plus the Melbourne School of Business, plus the global innovation design lab. So the whole idea is to create synergies between these three departments. And I think, for us, so it was a tall order, because there's an importance to creating an environment that allows What are three very distinct academic departments in a way with distinct subject areas, that allows them to have the spaces they need to support their programs. But that also creates the opportunity for really productive overlaps between those programs. So there was a lot of effort in that process, which is kind of all part of what in this project would called project definition where you really establish those project parameters, which are the, you know, core points of any successful project, if you say, like program, budget schedule, but it's also for us about those aspirations. Again, it's about understanding what the project principles are, so that people can really unite around supporting those goals. And then those principles can be can help with decision making and assessing the success of the project as you'd have moving a lot.
Atif Qadir 13:44
So what you described as this collaborative process on the design side of it, so to be able to understand what your users want, there's a similar process that was happening, or that will continue to be happening on the design build process between the professionals that are part of the building, could you explain for our listeners, what design build particularly means and what you are doing versus the university versus Anderson construction,
Kim Yao 14:10
design build can mean particular delivery method, it can kind of mean different things, depending on your owner, like you could be, you know, like here in your city, we're going to be saying or design both contracts, right, that are public work. In our experience on higher ed campuses. What's great is you have an owner that has good design and performance criteria as a real priority for buildings on their campus, right. So you already have a partner in the process who believes that the building has to be amazing and great and not just that the building needs to be built and and can be done for as cheaply as possible. But you know, so it's not never about building as much square footage as you can for the least amount of money. So what is interesting in the process is you end up with all three of those groups. We have our whiskey, you know Have are essentially like, Oh, I see meetings every week from day one. And it's not just to report out, it's really to collaboratively come together and make decisions together as a group. So it's like full transparency all the time, we're having those meetings and the owner is there in the room with us, the project managers are there with us so that decision making can happen efficiently. So a lot of the concept here is to maximize efficiency by creating that transparency, essentially, and you have to be able to trust your partners, I think, for it to work well. So it's been a really fun process, we talk a lot about making sure we're having fun, which is good. So we have that core value shared amongst all of us. But it's also been a lot of hard work. So the transparency is important. But then there's other tools and things that we use along the way. So the big room is one of them will use different kinds of ways of making decisions, we've used a method called choosing by advantage, and you do that. And what's nice about that is it helps with accountability, it helps show people later or show other groups at the university or in terms of their kind of decision making bodies that we're making the best decisions we can as a team for the project by actually establishing criteria, and then evaluating choices based on how those choices rank for that criteria. So it adds in this other layer of decision making. And it does mean, we love building we love this process. Like we love being there on site when stuff is happening in the field, and learning from our partners, whether that be like the owner, or the contractor or construction manager in any specific instance. And I think what's really positive about the design builder model for the architect or the architects and engineering team is that we can very effectively get feedback from the construction side. And that is seamless, and it's happening all the time. So you don't have this sort of traditional waiting for the end of the design phase to then go through a whole period before you find out where you are budget wise and all that there's significantly more sharing of content. And I think that helps push the design further in an efficient way.
Atif Qadir 17:07
So in a design build process, which may not be that different from a traditional project in the context of milestones, could you talk to just a little let listeners know, what are the milestones that you work toward as a designer in the design process? And then during the construction process? What are the major things that are happening?
Kim Yao 17:29
Yes, so in design, you don't have schematic design, design, development and construction documents. It's just like progression. And that the reason for that is that it does create this fluidity there doesn't want to be we're working and then there's pencils down and we're reviewing instead, that kind of work and review wants to be more seamless. And so that's one of the maybe easiest ways to talk about the distinction. We still internally sort of said, well, we know there's like earlier and later, I'll let you add a certain percentage here and a certain percentage there just to help everyone push towards like completion of resolution is higher fidelity, as we got further along in the process. What's interesting is that the financial piece also ends up being managed differently because of that transparency we were talking about before. So as a mini example, we have what we call have a value added log. So the whole point of the project is to get as much gold out as much as we can get as much in the building as we can. And to do it in a way where we say there's essentials. And then maybe there's some things in the project that are nice to haves or maybe not as essential, but it would be really nice to do X, Y or Z thing. And we put those kinds of things on a log called the value added log. And as we go through construction, and reach milestones in construction, which in that regard, in many ways, there's more overlap between when design is still finishing and construction is starting. But the milestones in construction can be kind of similar where you'd have like excavation and site work. And then in our case, would delivery on to the site and like kind of reaching these closing in the building these construction milestones. What is happening is we're taking as we get further in the process, and have procured more wish that procurement starts earlier. It means that as a team, we can decide to release funds, as you're going through the process to help take things off that value added list. So it basically gives the owner and design build team the ability to feel confident about the numbers because procurement has started sooner. Those subcontractors have bought in at that particular costs. And then some of the contingency monies that haven't been spent can be allocated and released, essentially, and that arc happens, you know, it's all happening kind of simultaneously. And we use a lot of like spreadsheets and things. So check this It's an effort of like checking the numbers but like I said we have. We've had so much fun working with Andersen and the university it's been really good process so far, and we're just getting ready to start construction and start moving dirt around. So that'll be it'll be see how we transition into that phase here this summer.
Atif Qadir 20:10
It sounds like having a process of communication that is robust and flexible, whether it's through spreadsheets or through something else is really important. But the test is really going to be when construction starts, or how those methods are continued and maintained. So I think we'll definitely be curious to check in on you and and how that's going.
Kim Yao 20:29
Yeah, totally. And I think it also is a testament construction starts. And it's also like how we, as a team can stay cohesive, through points of friction. In any project, there are points of friction. And I think, as a team, you have to have a strong team dynamic to work really collaboratively and to kind of get to the end in a productive way. And I think that goes back to that idea of trust.
Atif Qadir 20:55
So mass timber has played an important role in this project in terms of materials. Can you explain what mass timber is and why you chose it?
Kim Yao 21:05
Yes, so mass timber can mean a lot of different things. And obviously, in different regions in the US and around the world, like it's more prevalently used. And other places. If we don't see it as often here in New York, because of our coats in New York, it's harder to turn it in to implement mass timber currently, but hopefully, that will change. But it was actually a priority for the chancellor for the university to do a mass timber building. It was one of the reasons we were super excited about the project. And it's also an Anderson construction was hired as a design builder because they have extensive mass timber experience in the northwest. So mass timber in our case, means we're using cross laminated timber panels for one of our structural systems for one major component of building we're using glulam columns and beams, we are doing CLT and concrete in our building for a variety of reasons. Essentially, there's the concrete is topping slab. So essentially, you have CLT structural deck, a really even 10 foot grid of columns, and those glulam columns and beams, and all that timber can be exposed in the building. And what that means is you have this really beautiful final finish, you don't have to cover it up, you don't have to put spray fireproofing on it, you don't have to encase it with intumescent paint, it's just there. And it really adds to the character and quality of the building in terms of its level of finished at the inside. So timber is important, because to come as a timber town, like we talked about the Northwest as being like rooted in the logging industry historically, to come as particularly had a very strong timber industry. And our site is right on the prairie Line Trail, which is a kind of industrial warehouse district in Tacoma, that also had ties to the timber industry.
Atif Qadir 22:51
So that was a major part of the structure. And then it was also visible in different parts of the building. Could you talk about what were some of the most prominent materials that you chose for the facade, as well as for the interiors?
Kim Yao 23:07
Sure. So I mentioned that this is in this on this trail, and in this historic part of the comments, actually in a historic preservation district. And many of the buildings in the immediate vicinity are Brick Warehouse buildings, some on the University's campus and some not. And so we felt from very early on, even though the university never said it had to be a brick building, it just had to be a mass timber building, we felt like there should be brick in a building. And that would really resonate with the context. And then we could detail and think about brick in a really modern way, but have it feel from a material standpoint, tied to this site. So we're using brick cavity walls, and then metal rainscreen cladding. So the two, two sides of the building, like one kind of side is essentially all the lab spaces and the other is faculty offices in the centers and classrooms, those flexible spaces. And so the brick defines one of those defines the faculty side and the classroom side and then the metal rainscreen defines the other, and then an interior room and one of the things that's also really interesting about the campus is there's just a straightforward honesty and directness to the buildings sort of very direct and not industrial, but the little bit a little bit industrial probably has to do again with that context. And so we always knew that exposing all the timber would be perfectly appropriate. So the finish approach is very minimal. Like we're going to have concrete floors, we're going to have carpet in some classrooms is interior glazing to kind of bring daylight into interior spaces, and then acoustic materials and vertical and horizontal finishes to really help the acoustics in the spaces. And then where we can we will probably use wood as an interior finish also, just to kind of again, maximize the warmth. So though right now, most of the wood is in the structural approach, which we liked that too. mechanist because again, also, the other part of the interior is exposing all of our systems for the, you know, engineering students. And so being able to see those mechanical systems and in action and see structural systems in action is actually of real interest.
Atif Qadir 25:14
And then the materials that you've chosen all of these contexts, not only are they responsible for the building to perform the way that you're designing it to, but it's also really important as a symbol or an emblem of that of the university. So what I particularly like about the mill guard project is this very strong expressed goal, to increase access to high paying careers, like engineering in which women and minorities are wildly underrepresented. Are there ways as an architect to physically make a building look and feel more accessible? The answer
Kim Yao 25:51
is, yes, there are, but I don't think it's a super direct and easy answer. And we've been having this conversation for many years. And it really comes out in certain conversations with different academic clients in particular, or foundation clients, certain kinds of client that want to make sure they're creating environments that welcome all people that are aware that they might have other environments, on their campus or in their institution that do not achieve that, right. So I think that we talk about spaces that feel welcoming, that feel open, like a sense of an open door, a sense of being invited in that relates to the community piece here, a sense of connectedness to its environment, so easy to cross boundaries, right? It just feel like there are door places you're not supposed to go. So a semi openness and brightness, and bringing material warmth to the building both of the exterior and the interior can help with that. And also thinking about human scale in terms of the design of the building, both in terms of the exterior and interior can help with that so that people feel the individual feels oriented in a place and doesn't feel overwhelmed by that place, even though you can have in terms of the design spaces of different kinds of hierarchy and skill. But it's not like there's a one hopes that good design is accessible design, always I don't think that's necessarily always the case, there's great design that I think probably isn't welcoming to everybody. So I think trying to kind of strike that balance doesn't in any way less than the kind of level of the caliber or the design right in those built in these buildings. But I think it's a really important issue. And it's a really important goal, to make sure that buildings feel are inclusive, like, one of our principles for this project is to create a student hub, there's a community facing piece, there's the idea of a student hub, you can't create a student hub, if people don't feel like at home in this place. Right? They have to feel like they can come in and they can hang out. Oh, no, that is designed a lot. It's also operational, right. It's also has to do with policies and procedures, and making sure that the way the building is staffed and the way it's run is done in a way that welcomes people in so it's having being able to have all those conversations is really important.
Atif Qadir 28:20
That's a really important point. I'm just going to take a break here for a moment to let listeners know that we're incredibly excited that Rachel lobe, the new president and CEO of the New York City, EDC will be joining us later this season. So she'll be our first public client, and we'll be talking about an incredible initiative that she's working on as she's taking the top role now with the New York City EDC. I really love this last question that you've responded to beautifully. I want to kind of push that a little bit more now, to the big picture beyond Milgard Hall. There often is this perverse hypothesis that public construction needs to look austere. And it needs to look simple, because, quote, unquote, we don't deserve nice things. Why should public institutions spend taxpayer dollars on beautiful finishes and high design?
Kim Yao 29:10
I don't know if it's first and foremost, but I think really importantly, to affirm that we do deserve those things. Right, that and also, and that those nice things, people of all backgrounds and socio economic levels, deserve those nice things and deserve that technology or deserve that lab space. Right. So it's an affirmation of our belief in sort of public to provide spaces that again, elevate you know, the quality of people's lives, so and great design doesn't have to come with a huge price tag. Really positive or really strong design solutions and spaces can happen on really tight budgets and can happen on really rich budgets, right, like really expensive budgets. And so I think the underpinnings of desire caliber, I mean, it's such a hard thing to talk about, right? When we think about how subjective that can be for people. But creating these spaces doesn't have to rely on huge expense at all times, it really just depends on those particular parameters of any project. I think it's about communicating worth. And it's also about communicating trust, because there's also this sense. And I think this is perhaps less the case in university buildings like public university buildings, where there's a sense that the design has to be has to protect the building from the public, when the public should really be welcomed to the building, right, the public, you know, there has to be a sense of like, respect and appreciation and trust and investment in places.
Atif Qadir 30:42
I think we probably have many instances where I think particularly after 911, in New York City, there became this incredibly reactionary move to believe that every single institution needs to be bomb proof, ballistic proof, and have concrete blocks in front of it. And I wonder if there's actually a measure of does that do what it's intended to do? I don't think the answer is yes.
Kim Yao 31:08
Yeah, exactly. And I mean, any more nuanced and very tricky way, we also see that we see that in conversations about bulletproof glazing was a conversation that I wish as architects we didn't have to have in the States. But it's a really compelling one, because depending on the client and the organization, that this concern about, security can become very tricky.
Atif Qadir 31:34
I think what's really critical in our industry doing better than we've done before, because in many ways, the greatest critique of our industry is that we're, in our worst senses, we can be a tool of oppression and of suppression, by building the wrong way. And I think when we have leaders like you, at the head of organizations like the AIA, the idea of just having a conversation about that seems so radical to begin with. And from there, that's where change actually happened. So tell me how, what are your thoughts are about that?
Kim Yao 32:09
It is so tricky. But fundamentally, we have to have moral compasses, as architects, right? We have our own whatever our own sense of ethics as individuals or as a firm, but a whole question of what work do you do what work to not do? gets very tricky, but I think it's really important to step beyond the line that I create the building, how people use, it is not my responsibility. There's certainly truth to that, like in a very literal way, right. But if you're contributing to systems of oppression, I think you often know your client, and you might know what the systems could be. Right. So I think having basically being self aware, and we have a responsibility to push that conversation for all the clients that we work with, right. And and that could be, again, that could be about social equity issues, it could be or social justice issues it could be about an is about sustainability issues to like, because sometimes we have to bring people to the place where we want to be practicing right, and to create the kinds of buildings we want to be making. So self reflection is important. Right? That's the
Atif Qadir 33:19
That's, I think it's self reflection. And what you mentioned early on this idea about being aware of what the goals particularly are of a project. And I think that the same person that can say that guns don't kill people do, I think are the same type of person that will say that buildings don't oppress people do?
Kim Yao 33:41
That's exactly right. So there's a lot of work. There's a lot of room for growth. And I hope that the conversation that we have been having, as public as a community as a profession, really before the past year, but certainly in the past year, I really hope that's going to create continue to create some momentum around greater awareness, greater responsibility, greater, bigger strides towards rethinking some of our processes
Atif Qadir 34:08
that don't want us to live in this rarefied eras of conversation. I think this specific examples when we say when I say that lucky if there's any additional investors, these ideas of when buildings are pressed, it's when, for example, police department buildings look like bunkers, or when City Halls look like concrete walls. It's when you need to cross a highway and seven different security checkpoints to get to the Social Security office. Are those examples that you're thinking of?
Kim Yao 34:36
Those are excellent examples. Like we need to think about connecting with our community members, right, especially like in public spaces, rather than denying access, which is what many of those techniques you're talking about, directly do so that connection, and that first impression is made possible it it is largely occurs at the level of approach like seeing and building and trainability. Do I feel like I can go in here and not like, what is that like? And so, and that's it, you know, I mean, working in the city here, this is one of the things it's also so interesting I think about cities is that we just we don't solve front. You know, it's all frontage.
Atif Qadir 35:17
So what's so interesting is a lot of what we're discussing is this idea of, of access and connectivity and being able to imagine yourself and to put yourself in that place. But this past year, because of the pandemic, many amazing university buildings like the ones that arrow designs have sat empty. So how have you thought about designing for a digital and virtual education on this specific project that we talked about today, but more broadly, in the sweep of university projects you'll be doing in the next couple of years?
Kim Yao 35:54
Yeah, it's really interesting, because universities, for large part to generalize, are founded on a model where you are physically there in the classroom, and they're on campus,
Atif Qadir 36:09
the residential experience, the classic four year liberal arts.
Kim Yao 36:12
Exactly. And not all campuses are asking, in our experience, what we've seen in the past year, and on campuses, or clients, I should say, are asking the question the same way, like, are we going to come back the same way? Or what is that going to look like? And people are asking that question, but it hasn't had a shocking or dramatic influence on the final programmatic needs of projects in what we've seen in this short window, that I think that will continue to evolve. I don't know if that's founded on just a sense of, of course, we returned to place, which is also like the conversation we have in our office, like, of course, we returned to place a cursory return to the office at some point, right, or if it's just because of the need to embark some kinds of knowledge and person like lab spaces, you really can't do that have engineering oriented education in a lab environment, unless you can be on campus and in school, and those are some of the spaces that have been able to remain open, right. And in very specific instances, because of the nature of the work in very limited capacity. Right. So I think one of the places it's really obvious and direct and which won't be a surprise is just constantly talking about integrating technology, a real uptick in audio, visual and infrastructural requirements to support more remote learning possibilities. So there certainly is that desire for building in the infrastructure to enable it, and which really aligns with just a fundamental premise that we always bring to academic projects, which has to do with flexibility, like you can't build an academic building for like, that's gonna last 10 years. Like that's not the point you're building academic buildings that are going to last like 100 years, hopefully, right or, and maybe longer, hopefully. So those buildings need to be thought of from a planning standpoint, from a with a flexible framework. And they have to have systems integration done in a way that allows the building to evolve over time. And so I think we have seen an uptick in again, those types of audio visual requirements that will help facilitate different modes of learning and gathering. But we have not seen a dramatic push towards downsizing or a dramatic push towards reduced occupancy at all.
Atif Qadir 38:31
Do you think that's because people just don't know what they're doing? Or do you think that's a conscious decision?
Kim Yao 38:35
I think a little bit of it comes from that fear, but that like, belief that we'll be back, a little bit of it comes from like faith is better than fear of faith. And then I think it's a conscious decision. It's a conscious decision. And maybe it's because we're going to plan for what we know. And what we know is x. And if we know as an organization that we want that to be what we return to at some point, then it would be short sighted not to plan for that. But we have done some like planning work for nonprofits and stuff, which is we've done some work for people where they've specifically said like, we really want to see how tight we can get.
Atif Qadir 39:15
Yeah, there's something really interesting in that the mullet millennial generation, and my generation has seen two huge economic collapses driven by large scale, what's the right way of saying this ineffectual policy or lost a fair economics or lost a fair public policy? So the tech bubble is just the beginning as getting into college. And so before going into their first jobs, the second one was the real estate bubble in 2008. Then you can probably make a similar line of argument to the corona bubble or the corona collapse, whatever term people will call it the near history, and I think there's an interesting perhaps fourth one coming, which is a major correction in the higher education industry because It is absolutely an interest industry, even though it's a nonprofit institutions, perhaps different between public and private institutions. But I wonder what the conversations might be when the justification of charging 6070 $80,000 a year for a college education is based on the notion of in person education. And if I've said my friends are now have kids that are maybe a couple years down the road, and now that we're starting to have parties again and see people again, some of the people just are shaking their head is like, I literally just paid $70,000 a year for my kid to live in my basement.
Kim Yao 40:36
Yeah, I know. And I think absolutely, you're onto something. And I think, you know, ultimately, we were already headed towards that admission color precedents. But we're headed toward we're heading towards that anyway. Right. All the conversation about increasing increased costs and education, the industry in the US and what it yields policies around around underwriting or or offsetting costs for college students, whether it's federal policy, all that kind of conversation. So we were having this conversations anyway, right? And then you get to an environment like this, where that is exactly the question people are asking, or you have people who, who took a gap year, and they're going to come back. And then there's this whole other kind of density that will happen or concern about people graduating and the timing of the graduations and what that does for workforce and stuff. So yeah, I think it's a real, I think we're in a little bit of a wait and see moment, maybe there's ways to I don't know that. I don't know if there are ways to influence that. But I think you're right, I think people will be definitely more critical of the default, like, of course, we're going to just go off and get this degree and not think about that. Think about the kind of consequences in the continent and the ROI of that.
Atif Qadir 41:48
That's what I find that projects like this mulgara Hall project are so impressive, because there is this very clear goal, which is to drive people towards educational opportunities that are the ones with the highest paying and the most valuable to our economy, and absolutely require the in person education. And I think that those three things combining that is the type in my hypothesis, so there's no I'm curious what you think, are those the types of university buildings that will never change those or rather, they will never stop being made?
Kim Yao 42:21
Yeah, I think that's absolutely correct, because they there is no substitute, right. And the trick there is that some aspects of those projects in this buildings are less flexible than other kinds of like more flexible environments, we might also try to create because they have to be bespoke, they have to be tailored very specifically to soils engineering or hydrology, however, you can still say we're going to build on the infrastructure, the load capacity, all of that in this building, and then maybe the equipment and imagine that in the future, the equipment might need to change. So there's still the feasibility for that. But I do think it is I do think you're That's exactly right, as they're also the kinds of spaces and buildings that that to continue to grow engineering disciplines in our country, we need to offer that type of education to promote innovation or to promote new technologies. So I think, I guess I was sort of thinking that there ends up having to be we've interviewed for projects that were in lab oriented buildings, on campuses that have very robust programs. But those spaces need to be kept, they really need to be maintained and kept kind of cutting edge, so to speak, in order to for the institutions to be competitive, and for their students to be competitive. And to support the kinds of faculty research that is occurring in these different environments.
Atif Qadir 43:43
I think what I find I got as an hour should be should wrap up is that in the 24 years that you have spent at Aaro, you started as an intern, it was only a temporary hire who was only supposed to be there for two weeks. I know that you that your firm, you're growing and you've recently hired some incredible staff members, what advice do you have for those particular new hires at your firm and more, more broadly, listeners who might be starting their first jobs?
Kim Yao 44:11
I think it's really important to enter a workplace with an open mind to be curious, engaged, to share your opinions. So to be vocal and because that's why you hire someone doesn't matter how much experience they have you hire them because you think they're talented, and that they can add to the conversation that you're having, whether it be about design or whether it be about some other initiative in the office or some other issue, social issue, right? So I think the open minded piece I think is really important. I like to tell some my like former students when you're going out and like thinking about where to work and what to look for, I always say you have to look for a place that's going to respect who you are and where you feel like you are being heard.
Atif Qadir 44:59
Excellent. So Thanks so much for joining us today on the American building podcast. If you want to hear the behind the scenes stories of how iconic buildings in our country were designed and built, subscribe to this podcast on Spotify, iTunes, Google, or wherever it is that you'd like to listen, we all know real estate is a tough industry to make it. So how can professionals stand out and make a name for themselves in today's world, hear from me, the team and Michael Graves and many of our spectacular guests just like Kim on what we did to make it where we are. Grab our exclusive guide seven tips on how to start to stand out in your field at American building. podcast.com. Finally, we live in the richest country in the history of humankind. We must reach out beyond the boundaries that we see and the boundaries that we create in order to help build homes and communities for others. Today, Kim and I have made donations to the amazing Asian American Advocacy Fund, which educates and empowers Asian American communities to fight for a government that is respectful of all people. I encourage you our listeners to support their worthwhile work as well. My name is author Jeff Carter, and this has been American building by Michael Graves.