Camila Crazut, Formerly of Spivak Architects | Central Park West in New York City | Who's Afraid of the Cooperative

Transcript

Announcer  00:02

Welcome to American Building, a weekly recorded show whose mission is to share an alternative perspective of what we build in America, and why. Together we discover how the work of the real estate industry connects to every American. In season two, we focused on how buildings changed as a result of the pandemic. In this season, we're revisiting conversations from previous seasons, to see where Americans put their heads down at night. Together, we will discover the many definitions of home across the New York City metropolitan area, which includes over 23 million Americans. Each week, we'll visit a new building and explore complex and confusing issues related to housing access to see what they can teach us about ourselves, and our country will meet those who work to develop in thoughtful and impactful ways, who build neighborhoods to be more sustainable, affordable, accessible, or inclusive, who labor to create thriving communities, and transform the lives of generations to come. Through their stories, we will humanize often polarizing topics. Profound, surprising, and hilarious. This show is for developers and builders with boots on the ground for innovators trying to find ways to improve our industry, for the policymakers and public employees. And for any person who has walked by a building and wondered why. And now your host award winning architect turned developer and startup founder Atif Qadir, AIA


Atif Qadir  01:53

This is American Building. And I'm your host, Atif Qadir. I'm the founder of Commonplace. Join me as it take a drive by the skylines and strip malls, crosswalks, and rail crossings, balconies, buildings and boroughs to discover a new generation of housing. Let's build common ground.

Atif Qadir  02:26

In this episode, you will learn about the cooperative, why it was created and why it remains. So what are cooperatives also known as coops for short. They are a form of property ownership in which a corporation owns a multifamily building. And individual owners of the corporation each have a stock and lease that defines their ownership share and allows them to live in the particular apartment they purchased. In comparison, a condominium is a form of property ownership in which an individual owns the real property they purchased, as well as undivided shared interest in the common areas of the building. Single Family is the simplest form of property ownership. 

Atif Qadir  03:11

They're an individual owns the building and the land they purchased. In New York City coops represent 74% of the for sale housing stock and exist at price points from affordable housing to luxurious residences. Affordable coops are offered through HDFC or housing development fund corporations, and benefit from reduced real estate taxes and other benefits in exchange for following income and resell restrictions. There are about 26,000 of them in New York City. During the 1970s and 1980s, the city of New York acquired many residential buildings that were abandoned by their landlords and were in financial distress. The city rehabbed those buildings and over the years, gave the tenants the opportunity to own their apartments and become shareholders. Co Op city in the Bronx is another example of a government regulated affordable Co Op, which is home to a mix of working class and middle class New Yorkers. There is another reason coops are created, and that was for a different type of housing market rate, especially luxury multifamily buildings often chose the coop structure in the 1900s to allow for controls on building operations and purchase and sales that are not possible in condominiums. 

Atif Qadir  04:33

Classic examples include board interviews and detailed board applications in addition to the normal process of purchasing property. When I started working at xL development, I tried to purchase a co op in Murray Hill in Manhattan within walking distance of my office. I was rejected. Imagine that. message me on LinkedIn if you want to hear that long sordid tale I know Our own a co op unit but across the river in Hoboken. The market rate Co Op is really an American creation, perhaps playing on our social anxieties of race and class, and it is a legally protected one. Coops aren't required to disclose their reasons for purchase and sale decisions because they are exempt from the US Fair Housing Act as private corporations. Writer DW Gibson wrote about the structure in a great article for The Guardian last year. The link is in the show notes. 

Atif Qadir  05:31

In this episode of American building, I am sharing an edited version of the conversation I had in September 2021. With architect and interior designer Camila crest suit, Camila is now the Director of interior design at linear scape at New York City design firm. At the time of the interview, she was a senior interior designer at Spivak architects. Previously, she was an interior designer at McKinley design, and TPG architecture. She is a graduate of the Pratt Institute and Universidad Central de Venezuela. We talked about the renovation, she led of a co op apartment on Central Park West in Manhattan. Enjoy the conversation. Thank you so much for being here with us. Camila.


Camilia Crazut  06:20

Thank you for having me. This is great.

Atif Qadir  06:23

Absolutely. My pleasure. So let's dive right in. You did your training in architecture and Venezuela, and you're training in interior design in the United States? What were the differences and how you were taught in those two places?

Camilia Crazut  06:39

Oh, wow, huge difference, I would say that the education in Venezuela is more European oriented. So when you graduate from high school to actually go to your career. And it's not like here that you can have like a two or three years of basic classes, and then you decide where you go. And then actually do you finally decide then of your career with a master's degree or something like that, in Venezuela is more like, it's the university is not a college, and you go and you're a lawyer or a doctor, or an archetype, engineer, psychologist, something like that. And it's supposed to be that it's supposed to be the rest of your life. So you're going to be that for the rest of your life. When I came to New York to study interior design, that I thought it was a complement to architecture, I realized that it was not that is was same here, like a completely different field, that it didn't matter what was my background before taking the masters. So I had some classmates, they didn't have any background in architecture or design. And I was baffled by that. I mean, it was like, I didn't understand. But I've been here now for 23 years. So now I understand that you can change.


Atif Qadir  07:56

And then the firm that you're currently with the project that we're gonna be focusing on is the Central Park West project. So talk to us about the Upper West Side, the neighborhood where this project is located, and the building itself, because many of our listeners are actually from outside New York City. And we want to give them a perspective of Manhattan and specifically this part of Manhattan.


Camilia Crazut  08:19

The Upper West Side is a residential neighborhood is next to Central Park is a family neighborhood, but also very high end neighborhoods. So it's an upper class area. The building itself is Central Park West. So it faces the Central Park. So you just cross the street, and you have this huge carving.

Atif Qadir  08:45

And the West refers to being on the west side of the park, right?

Camilia Crazut  08:48

West side of the park. Yeah. And then you have the east side that is similar kind of neighborhood this way. And so there was I will say there was this more family oriented that there is that's the stereotype. That's how people here in Manhattan, think about it. And the main thing is a pre war building is not that tall. I think it's the living floor. So live with stories. 11 to 12. That's a that's a it's a pre war building. So it's very often.

Atif Qadir  09:19

And when people say pre war in the United States, or in New York City, specifically that means before World War Two, right? Yeah. That means a 1930s 1920s, etc. Like that.


Camilia Crazut  09:31

Yeah. knighting

Atif Qadir  09:34

the scope of the apartment renovation, could you walk through that for us as well? Yes,

Camilia Crazut  09:39

this claim came to our office because they saw another project the office did some time ago, and they really liked it. And they liked the concept. And they have this apartment, and they approach the office asking for same ideas that were they saw in the apartment. So this is a completely renovation project. So we We'd completely demolish the whole apartment. So everything was removed. We have working on it since then. You mean except

Atif Qadir  10:08

the structure and the facade, right?

Camilia Crazut  10:11

Yeah. All the interior walls or the barn rooms, kitchen, plumbing, electrical, everything was removed and done.


Atif Qadir  10:22

And in terms of the number of bedrooms and bathrooms, how much was that?

Camilia Crazut  10:28

So we have three bedrooms, three bathrooms, one office, one guest bathroom, we have open kitchen, living and dining area. So it's an open layout. And we have a TV family area that it could be close or open towards the living room area.

Atif Qadir  10:47

And who were your clients, and what was the process like and working with them,


Camilia Crazut  10:51

they saw a couple with two kids, they were both professionals. He has his own company. They approach as I say they approach the office, because they saw this project that they obviously before and they really like it, they are very open to our suggestions. And they are very willing to work with us. And they understand what is the role of the architects and designers. So it has been actually a very good project in that time. So it has been very good to work with them.

Atif Qadir  11:28

Is our past projects, one of the most common ways that your firm gets new projects.


Camilia Crazut  11:34

Yeah, it is. I mean, we are a very small, firm, and more like a boutique studio. We actually don't have any need. We work in different kinds of projects, which is what sometimes I would say is not that good sometimes, because as I said before, I mean people like when, when the architect or designer is just working one thing,


Atif Qadir  11:57

drips of the client, would you say that they are very detailed, or they gave you pretty much full rein to do whatever you want. Like how did that process work?

Camilia Crazut  12:07

Well, specifically, this one, I mean, they came saying, We really like this idea that you did in the solar project, which was my apartment to where the millwork was part of the red as the walls of the project. So they really liked this idea. And also they liked that we had a lot of closets and a lot of storage. So that was a concept that was used on this design from the very beginning. So they are very open. They really know what they want. But they are open to suggestions. They tell them we want this or this feeling. And then we come with solutions. And they said yes, it's going to work, this is not going to work.


Atif Qadir  12:47

And then walk our listeners through the apartment, describing what they would see along the way, including these beautiful millwork walls.

Camilia Crazut  12:56

Well, when you're getting into the apartment, you have your home for years space, where you're going to have this beautiful millwork wall that is actually in your closet for your coats. And then you're gonna see a peek of the open area, the living room and the dining room. On your left, you're going to see the open kitchen, which is a kitchen that actually has a glass wall that when you're not using the back of the kitchen, you just close that wall. And then you're gonna see all this millwork up to a fifth height. And the way that we design it is that it has the impression that it doesn't have any wall on top. So you can see through but actually there is a divisions and then you're gonna have this beautiful hallway with all this millwork that has some undulating features because the poles are is a piece of mode that is undulating. And those are the backgrounds and then on your ride, I mean the living room and the dining room is gonna have all this windows that you can see the Central Park.


Atif Qadir  14:02

So in your design process because the views of Central Park are so valuable and something that people will really appreciate what role did those like the windows and the weird natural light was coming in play in your design process for the interiors.


Camilia Crazut  14:17

He was a big role actually, the whole layout of the apartment was changed for what it was the beginning. I mean, remember this is all the apartment and actually one of the areas that has all this beautiful windows to the central part was a bedroom and you couldn't see it from the entrance of the when you enter the apartment. So we changed the whole layout to take advantage of those windows and to have more windows into the living areas basis. The main windows or windows that go to the cross street still you can pick a little bit to the central park but not as much as they for then it was a priority to have the main views in the living area.


Atif Qadir  14:58

And then Europe At 90% done with a project now, looking back, what would you say are some of the biggest challenges you faced in the design process and then executing that design?

Camilia Crazut  15:10

The challenge that we face was the building.

Atif Qadir  15:14

Okay. What do you mean by that?

Camilia Crazut  15:17

The coop?


Atif Qadir  15:18

Got it? Oh, the cooperatives structure?


Camilia Crazut  15:21

Yeah, it's like Co Op buildings. So it has a whole process of approvals. All your loans have to go to the core chair, group. And we have a lot of back and forward with a co op. And we had to change things because the coop leaving approved them, they were really afraid of something that is called wet or dry. So if you have a bathroom upstairs, and then downstairs is not a bad room, it could cause a problem. We waterproof the whole apartment. Yeah, on the floor, not just the bathrooms. I mean, the whole apartment is what approved?


Atif Qadir  15:59

Oh, wow. Why would you do that underneath the living room, for example,

Camilia Crazut  16:03

because we wanted to make sure that they knew we weren't going to have problems, the end. And we actually removed the whole floor construction, we just left the structure. And we did it again. So because we wanted to have a very level floor, got it. Since everything is millwork. I mean, it's very important to have a level floor. So then you don't have this difference in heights. So the coop was very challenging. And also, unfortunately, the pandemic, according to them.

Atif Qadir  16:37

Oh, yeah, that bad. But specifically, was it because of labor or materials or both?

Camilia Crazut  16:45

is specifically because time is time. Okay, time that we didn't take in consideration. It took a lot of time from the project. And that means money. And


Atif Qadir  16:58

so that means literally, like one of my projects stopped for about six weeks until the state figured out what they were doing in terms of allowing construction or not allowing, did you have a similar break of six weeks or was a longer shorter,


Camilia Crazut  17:11

was longer than that? Got it. And the pandemic it was longer than that. I mean, the building close gaining access to the building,

Atif Qadir  17:20

because it's different probably than a new construction or even a single family home because you can stage around

Camilia Crazut  17:25

property easily. So we simply couldn't access the building. They didn't allow us until the city open all construction. Got it. That was long. I mean, it's it's time Time is money. And thank God, the client, I mean, has been very, he'll understand all this process. He doesn't need to move immediately. So yeah,

Atif Qadir  17:47

I think that that is a incredible challenge in places like New York and New Jersey, where the monthly cost of simply having a property is so high, from taxes to utilities, do your mortgage, and everything else, so I can definitely appreciate that. So Camila. What do you think makes a good client?

Camilia Crazut  18:08

Well, I think a good client is the one that understand what is your work that respect you as a designer, and understand that is coming to you because you have the tools and the preparation to do this type of work. That's what I think what I'm saying that because sometimes you get clients that they look and do and you are just a drafter for them. And they don't understand why you're taking the decisions that you're taking. And they come back and ask the same questions and we try to explain to them why the way that we are doing it is the way that it could be better for them to use the space. So that's what I think makes a good client and a bad client. I asked for them both questions.


Atif Qadir  18:57

I think I'm then I'm going to ask you a bit more about the good clients, because that's a better one. So you talked about a client being able to understand and appreciate the profession of design and the skills that that come to it. Talk to us more about how a good client would be able to express that they just don't like something versus don't like your process or don't like the way that you're going about something that what is the right way for a client to be able to express that.

Camilia Crazut  19:31

Okay, I would say I mean the best way for a client to approach a designer, an architect and saying that the word designer, because this applies to any field that you have to design something is what is telling the designer, what is the end result? What do you want to the end? If it is your house? Or how do you want to feel in your house? How do you live? I mean, are you A person that likes to have people in your place? Are you a person that likes to entertain? Or are you a private person? That's the best way to approach the designer. Tell him what are your desires? How do you feel the end result should be, but not telling me from the beginning is I like this type of window, I like this type of knob door. Because those details are going to be part of the concept I want to be, I want to be the result of the part of the concept. So the main, the main thing is the concept that you're going to have at the beginning. And the concept is based on those requirements that the client has.


Atif Qadir  20:39

So it sounds like then a good client is one that is clear about their desires from the outset, and can clearly differentiate between what is the thought the emotion, the inspiration? And what is the actualization of it. So decided about I want really easy flow between the kitchen the living room was people are always going back back and forth. Rather than saying, Camila, I want this doorknob for the door between the two. Got it? I think it is similar way I could imagine, it's basically if someone were to go to a surgeon and say I want this surgery on this part of my body, and I want you to use this tool. And be like, Well, why?

Camilia Crazut  21:25

Exactly what I understand too, I mean, this is so subjective feel. Because at the end, I mean, it's you're gonna live there. So it's your house is no mine. So I understand that. But there are things that I as a professional as an architect, as interior designer, I know better. Let's see it. And you should trust. I mean, trust is also another word, you should trust me, you should trust your design and your architect that he's doing the best for you. The other things like colors finishes, that's also that's like a second part of the design process. So once you have the concept, once you know how the layout is gonna work, how the flow, as you say, is gonna work. So you can you can also start thinking about those things, although they overlap, because we don't think just today. I mean, we think, 3d. So we are thinking, at the same time that we are developing a layout, we are thinking, what I'm going to see from here, if I'm going to have windows here, or, or not. And also, I mean, there are all the technical stuff, we need to know. I mean, we need to know the code, say the issues.

Atif Qadir  22:41

Yeah, I think that you talked about the clients that you've had on the larger, more expensive projects. But you've also had good clients on projects of vastly different scope and scale and budget. Could you talk to us about clients on like a different type of project that we're good as well, that and what particularly was unique about them?

Camilia Crazut  23:03

Yeah, I did work for a while with Watson associates. And they did a lot of nonprofit organizations work. I specifically work on three of them. One of them was the coal project, they work with kids, and they have this office in around Astor Place. And it was a very old office, and it was so gray, and they wanted to renew it. But of course, being a nonprofit, the budget is always a problem. But they were great, because they were so open. All the suggestions that with the they really wanted something cheerful and colorful. And the way that we achieved that it was a very inexpensive way we did it with paints, we did it with graphics, we did it with lighting fixtures that were not expensive, then we solve it was amazing. It was beautiful. But they weren't connected to us all the way. And they were very helpful, open to all the suggestions that we have. So we go back to the same thing. I mean, the client that really appreciates you is the one that really helps into the process to is the best client and at the end is better for the project. Because if you have a good relationship with your client, if your client trust you, and you feel good, and you go and do more.


Atif Qadir  24:32

So to be fair, we've talked about what a good client is and then what a good designer is. It sounds like someone that is able to observe to listen to translate, and to imagine something that isn't there already. Does that sound like the right pairing with a good client?

Camilia Crazut  24:51

Yes. Yeah. As the designer you also need to listen to your client and not design something because you want to design is Like, I want to do this because I know it's gonna be great. But I don't care about where you're talking about. You know, there are some designers that are like that.


Atif Qadir  25:07

Tell us about some of those bad clients. Yeah,


Camilia Crazut  25:11

but clients in general, the ones that they don't respect you at all. And they keep asking the same questions like, why, and they'll have the table here and over there. And we have to explain there is because this and this and that, we have had a bunch of those.

Atif Qadir  25:28

That actually brings up a really good question of, at the outset of an engagement. How can you tell the difference between a good client and a bad client? Maybe you're at a party, you're at a first meeting somewhere? How do you start getting that impression?


Camilia Crazut  25:46

Well, yeah, we had this meeting this first meeting with a client, for example, we were taking over another project, because he fired that previous architect, that sounds like a warning sign number one, that's a warning, you need to be clear, you really need to dig in why he was fired. And then he was very, like, I really need to know this. And this from the very beginning. There are so many questions in the first meeting that you need to go back and do some research to in order to answer I mean, I'm personally I don't like to answer too many questions on the spot, because I always want to go back and do research. And think my answers. That was another one of if they just tell you from the very beginning, this is what I want. But this is what I want, I want the door here, I want the No, this is what I want as a concept. But this is what I want is a layout, in which the object itself or the house itself, that's that you're gonna know that you're gonna have a lot of problems. Okay, so it's gonna be very difficult to convince otherwise.

Atif Qadir  26:59

And then we have also talked at length about how many other projects that we've worked on, as architects are for wealthy clients and wealthy institutions with often limitless resources, and that are looking for high end work. I'm curious, I want to hear what you think about what are low end projects? And can those projects also be interesting? And those clients be interesting to? And Lauren,

Camilia Crazut  27:24

I mean, low budgets. Of course, they're interesting, because then the challenge is to achieve what you want in a low budget. So you have to be creative in your resources, what material you're talking about. Yeah, exactly. How do we create these cheerful displays without spending a ton of money, in furniture or in high end light fixtures. So it was the way that we use the colors, it was the way that we use the graphics, all those nonprofits with jobs that I did, the designs that I did, we use a lot of graphics, that it was just painted a lot of color, that it was just paint, and then make this face more welcoming, more cheerful, as I said, and it's fun to try to find those resources to be in budget. And to achieve something beautiful. Sometimes we have these crazy ideas, and we realize, okay, no, this is too expensive, but maybe, maybe we can do it this way, and it's less expensive, or with these materials, or with these finishes, and we're gonna get a nice result and a good result without blowing the budget.

Atif Qadir  28:40

So it sounds like then your the process would be the same for a high end project or a low end but the materials, the options, the solutions are potentially a different set of things, but looking to achieve similar goals.

Camilia Crazut  28:56

Yeah, the same process is the same no matter how much money you have. It's the same the science process is the same you have to research your side you have to talk with your plan, you have to know what you can do or you cannot do and then you have to design everything I mean, space that is gonna cause for example, a bathroom. I mean you can spend $5,000 so you can spend $100,000 But it's going to have a toilet is going to have a shower is going to have a sink in it's a toilet paper holder, you need to draw the same elements, no matter how expensive are those elements that are gonna go there. So the design of the layout and all this stuff is the same process then the design of the finishes and how are you going to finish it is well you'll have more options if you have more money. And if you have less money, you'll have less options but you can be and maybe use material that is you don't see that much in that in Barrowman. But it turns out that he says inexpensive material, and he's gonna look good. And he's gonna do the job. So, yeah. So then

Atif Qadir  30:09

that's what you would say would be the, the difference, okay. And then, in the course of these questions, we've talked a lot about relationships and being able to read people. And do you feel as an architect then that you have to be more than an architect in order to be successful, like a psychiatrist, a friend, a teacher, a nanny or babysitter? Like, what are the other roles?

Camilia Crazut  30:34

Yeah, all of them all have the balls. Yeah, I mean, you have to be very perceptive of your clients, what are the personalities and go along with them? And if it is a residential project, I think it will be the most difficult ones, especially if it is for a family or a couple. Because sometimes you have these discussions between the couples in front of you that I don't want this, I do want this. And then you have to be like, Okay, you need to you know, okay, we can do something in the middle, we can compromise. Maybe commercial projects are less difficult on that sense, because you just have one person that you need to usually is one person that takes the decision to

Atif Qadir  31:25

try to prevent a divorce as well during that process.

Camilia Crazut  31:28

Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you're thinking that this podcast is going to German architects and designers that are just leaving the school, I mean, the profession and the working environment, what we do is not just design, we do more than that you have to finance, finances, relationships, marketing, and then it's a lot.


Atif Qadir  32:01

Thanks for joining me today on American building. If you enjoyed this episode, and want to hear more, subscribe on your favorite listening app. And don't forget to rate and review and friends. I've teamed up with writers for the New York Times and dwell magazine to launch a digital media platform to tell the fascinating stories of the impact developers and capital providers. I work with a common place. Check it out@commonplace.us