Johanna Anderson of Ithaca Neighborhood Housing Services | Founders Way in Ithaca | Changing Needs, Changing Housing
Transcript
Announcer 00:02
Welcome to American Building, a weekly recorded show whose mission is to share an alternative perspective of what we build in America, and why. Together we discover how the work of the real estate industry connects to every American. In season two, we focused on how buildings changed as a result of the pandemic. In this season, we're revisiting conversations from previous seasons, to see where Americans put their heads down at night. Together, we will discover the many definitions of home across the New York City metropolitan area, which includes over 23 million Americans. Each week, we'll visit a new building and explore complex and confusing issues related to housing access to see what they can teach us about ourselves, and our country will meet those who work to develop in thoughtful and impactful ways, who build neighborhoods to be more sustainable, affordable, accessible, or inclusive, who labor to create thriving communities, and transform the lives of generations to come. Through their stories, we will humanize often polarizing topics. Profound, surprising, and hilarious. This show is for developers and builders with boots on the ground for innovators trying to find ways to improve our industry, for the policymakers and public employees. And for any person who has walked by a building and wondered why. And now your host award winning architect turned developer and startup founder Atif Qadir, AIA.
Atif Qadir 01:53
This is American Building. And I'm your host, Atif Qadir. I'm the founder of Commonplace. Join me as it take a drive by the skylines and strip malls, crosswalks, and rail crossings, balconies, buildings and boroughs to discover a new generation of housing. Let's build common ground.
Atif Qadir 02:26
In this episode, you will learn about the history of zoning in the greater New York City area as a means of separating uses and about mixed use projects and why they work in combining uses. Also, you'll join me in learning about founders way, a mixed use redevelopment in Ithaca, New York, which is also home to Cornell University,
Atif Qadir 02:52
The birth of zoning codes a history or how America learned to legislate its NIMBY impulses. Writer Amanda Ericsson wrote this bitingly named article for Bloomberg City Lab way back in 2012. Check the show notes for the link to the article. So in the beginning of an industrial America, there was no zoning, you could literally build a tall building next to a short one, and put the short one in shadow. You could make a factory next to a high end shopping district and annoyed said high end shopper. Back then nuisance laws were the basis of bringing suit against a perceived offender. Cases were often flimsy and based on personal annoyance, taxing already bloated court systems.
Atif Qadir 03:42
Zoning didn't solve this or at least yet. The precursor to zoning laws were height limits. As iron structures and elevators came into use. Buildings started getting tall, like really tall though, things got serious in 1915.
Atif Qadir 04:03
Rising without setbacks to its full height of 538 feet, the equitable building casts a seven acre shadow over neighbouring buildings affecting their value and setting the stage for the nation's first comprehensive zoning resolution. This was from the first version of New York City's zoning law, and that was written by lawyer Edward Bassett in 1916. The zoning law didn't just try to solve for light and air by controlling the height and shape of buildings, though. It also divided the city into residential and business uses.
Atif Qadir 04:44
Over time, the zoning law for New York City got more and more complex, often carving out spaces for the wealthy with low density housing. During this time, it wasn't progressive planners or safety obsessed politicans pushing this. It was actually homebuilders who thought they could sell homes for more if they could assure buyers that their neighborhoods wouldn't change, wink, wink. And these practices were getting codified and formalized.
Atif Qadir 05:17
In a landmark ruling in 1926 that cleared the way for exclusionary zoning, the Supreme Court wrote, "very often the apartment house is a mere parasite constructed in order to take advantage of the open spaces and attractive surroundings created by the residential character of the district." Whoa. Fast forward to today, some American cities reserve 75% of land by square footage for single family homes. Yes, I said cities.
Atif Qadir 05:53
Zoning, perhaps unsurprisingly to some of my listeners, has strong racial elements. residential segregation today by race does not occur by choice and preference. It is the product of subtle and not so subtle, exclusionary policies like I just described. It promotes expensive homes that given the strong correlation between class and race manifests power imbalances. Single Family zoning contributes to the affordability crisis in America because it limits the supply of housing, and allows inefficient use of land in desirable places.
Atif Qadir 06:32
In fact, the share of McMansions in the overall US housing inventory has increased since the 1980s, as the average household size has decreased. Conversely, more zoning diversity can support more racial diversity, which is the bedrock of building and preserving tolerance in our country. Learn more about this in diverse neighborhoods are made of diverse housing. An article by Tracy hadden lo Joanne Kim and Jennifer vai for Brookings. The link is also in the show notes.
Atif Qadir 07:07
Enter mixed use projects. These are developments that combine rather than separate different uses in the same location. ground floor retail in a residential multifamily building is a classic example. But it can go much further than that. Incorporating residential with office, retail with hotel and of course the Holy Grail, single family with multifamily.
Atif Qadir 07:35
In this episode of American building, I am sharing an edited version of the conversation I had in November 2021 with developer Johanna Anderson. Johanna Anderson is the executive director of Ithaca neighborhood housing services. This nonprofit organization focuses on the development and operations of housing for lower and middle income people in central New York State. Prior to working at IHS, she focused on affordable housing development and support services for Native people in Maine, and in Minnesota, she has also held board member roles in other nonprofit organizations working in this arena. She is a graduate of Colorado State University and Hudson University. Enjoy the conversation.
Atif Qadir 08:30
Thank you so much for being here with us, Johanna.
Johanna Anderson 08:33
thank you for having me. It's a pleasure.
Atif Qadir 08:35
Absolutely. So let's start with the basics. What is affordable housing? And how did you become interested in it? Well,
Johanna Anderson 08:45
Affordable housing is broadly defined as a household spending no more than 30% of their income, either on rent and utilities, or on their mortgage payment, which would also include their insurance and taxes. And it really is just making sure that people have a safe place to live that stable and that they can afford for the long term. I became interested in housing. From a very, very young age, I always enjoyed the ways that different households chose to live and then how they decorated and how they designed the spaces to really fit their households needs. And so far, I think from that curiosity, it just kind of grew and grew and grew until it got to the point where I was actually able to be involved on helping people get into homes and find that safe, stable place to live.
Atif Qadir 09:39
And to help our listeners understand affordable doesn't necessarily mean government owned or government directed. There's varying degrees of what affordable means, right?
Johanna Anderson 09:49
That's correct. So the government they do own some housing, public housing, but there are also a lot of different funds and subsidies that can go in to assisting people with building affordable or building housing, and with that additional subsidy will come additional regulations, and then depends on how many different sources you have in a project. But you could end up with quite a few different overlays of eligibility criteria, design criteria, things like that.
Atif Qadir 10:22
So then what you're describing is that the development of affordable housing can happen by nonprofit organizations like IHS, as well as by government agencies, and also private companies, could you explain a little bit more about those different players and how they operate?
Johanna Anderson 10:38
Sure. So for a nonprofit, because of our 501 C three status, we are eligible for additional subsidies and different kinds of sources. for profit companies, they can't always access that. And so oftentimes, they'll partner with a nonprofit so that they allow more sources to be used on project. And I would say that when it comes to development, really with all of ours, we have local government involvement with different funding that goes into it, we have private companies that we are taking out loans with, we've got our lenders, things like that. So I would say that it's it really is a large partnership of all of these various organizations and agencies and companies coming together to see a development come through.
Atif Qadir 11:25
And then so you have had the opportunity to develop affordable housing across three different states. What are the differences in how affordable housing is developed, managed and even perceived in these three different places?
Johanna Anderson 11:40
It's actually five different places. So you know, it really, it's so dependent on what kind of resources are available, and what level and that also trickles down to the local levels. So that really depends on how much the public and the population of that particular state, how much do they really value, the importance of affordable housing, because as voters, they will make sure that their representatives know that, and their representatives and government will then allocate additional resources to fund affordable projects. So I think that really depends on that kind of influence and communication. But I do believe that over the last, especially in the last 18 months, the importance of housing is really at the forefront. I mean, these last 1819 months, if we didn't have safe places to live, many people would be unable to remain employed, but continue to function through what has been just an excruciating experience. And I think everybody has really had their eyes open to these spaces that we exist in, now more than ever, and they really want to help others who don't really have that, that access. So my hope is that in the next few months and years, we're gonna see more funding and more of a priority be driven towards
Atif Qadir 13:12
These kinds of issues. And by last 18 months, you're referring to the pandemic, right, that is that thing called COVID-19. Yes, I want to dive into the founders way project. So describe in detail the founders way site to us. So including what is around it, what is there and how I NHS came to own that property?
Johanna Anderson 13:35
Sure. So for over 130 years, this was the Immaculate Conception school, it was part of the Catholic Diocese of Rochester. And many, many people have called that home. Many people have met their spouses there and sent their kids and grandkids there. It really has been just an institution in Ethica that so many people found solace and just made so many wonderful memories. So due to a declining population, the school ended up shutting down during the 2016 2017 school year, and the diocese decided to sell it.
Johanna Anderson 14:14
So INHS put in an offer and luckily it was accepted and we closed in mid 2018. So we took a look at the existing neighborhood we took a look and evaluated the existing structure and determined that a portion of it actually was not structurally sound enough for us to just renovate. So we were able to save one wing, renovate that and then we'll also be building new construction on a separate wing and then we'll be adding in cam homes along the streetscape that are both rental and for sale.
Atif Qadir 14:52
You mentioned the residential uses and the existing buildings that were there. I know that there is also going to be a gymnasium and office space Could you talk about some of those secondary uses as well, of course.
Johanna Anderson 15:04
So there was an existing gymnasium. And what we decided to do was we detach that. And we sold that back to the city of Ithaca, to be used for our, it's our greater athletics Activities Center called GIAC. And so they're using that space for their after school programming. And adjacent to the site, we share the actual block with Beverly J. Martin elementary school. So within that great proximity, we're anticipating quite a few families to be moving in there, since it's right next door to the elementary school, and the lower level of one of the wings will actually be renting that space out to local nonprofits that deal with youth and homelessness.
Atif Qadir 15:50
Homelessness is an issue that I think many people have been able to see more clearly over the past 18 months, could you talk a little bit more about like some of the specifics about homelessness issues and Ithaca that you're facing there?
Johanna Anderson 16:03
Of course, so, you know, unfortunately, like so many parts of the country is hitting all age groups. So we have set aside units that are specifically designed for individuals and households that are trying to exit homelessness, a lot of times, depending on their circumstances, they just don't qualify for various housing. And so we've got these units set aside, and we've got supportive services providers that will actually be assisting these families and, and households get back on their feet.
Atif Qadir 16:37
You mentioned that the development plan includes both the renovation of some of the existing assets that you talked about and building ground up, could you talk about the design strategies you're using to tie in the various buildings together and all these different uses together, so they look and they feel cohesive,
Johanna Anderson 16:55
you know, our philosophy when it comes to development, whether it's redevelopment or new construction, we like to really involve the community members. And so prior to really designing this and getting started with everything, we held quite a few in person community meetings. And we got a better understanding about what the neighborhood was missing or what they would like to see. And then we also had our design team, we went out and we took a look at the existing structures that are surrounding the site. And we really wanted to incorporate that into our design so that it was actually enhancing the existing neighborhood. And that standing in stark contrast to it. So if you look at our sites, the site design, we've actually incorporated quite a few townhomes that ran along the streetscape, so that it really brings back a residential feel. And even in the multifamily buildings, they are going to be four storeys that their height. When it comes down to the street level, we wanted to drop it down a level. And so from the sidewalk, you only see the first three stories. And now four stories sorts further back in.
Atif Qadir 18:05
Okay, so basically, the idea is that when someone is a pedestrian and walking along the side of this lot of this group of lots, they feel like there's a scale that that is appropriate for them in terms of the height, the nearness of buildings, that's something that you're considering them, right?
Johanna Anderson 18:20
Oh, yes, very much. And we actually took a look at the existing structures, and our site is right, in line with what they've got.
Atif Qadir 18:27
And how do you choose the designer, the contractor like the entire development team, for a really complicated project like this,
Johanna Anderson 18:37
you know, we are fortunate that we have a lot of really skilled experts in this area. And we've developed some very good relationships over the past many years. But we also really, I would say going into it, we want to make sure that the entire design team understands the type of funding that is going to be going into this so that they understand the compliance and the regulations and reporting that are set with this. Because if you have an inexperienced team member that you know, we're relying on to provide reports back to the funders, or to design a unit a specific way to meet your requirements, it can put the whole project at risk.
Atif Qadir 19:20
So it sounds like there's a particular amount of expertise in the design process as well as expertise in the process or the documentation associated with it.
Johanna Anderson 19:30
Yes, and I would say you know a lot of our partners, all of our partners are really committed to doing this work. So everyone is very invested in making sure that it becomes successful that they know what the end goal is. And you see value in that
Atif Qadir 19:45
and talks about the money. So how are you financing this project?
Johanna Anderson 19:51
We have several sources going into it it is just over 25 million, okay. And it is financed through a Low Income Housing Tax Credit. It is financed through New York State Housing Trust Fund. We've got private mortgages in there. We've got our own contribution of funds, where you're using New York State HOME funds. We've got the state low income housing credits. We've got funding from New York State Office for People With Developmental Disabilities, for the commercial spaces for the nonprofits. We have money coming in from the New York State Community Investment Fund. So quite a few.
Atif Qadir 20:34
And it sounds like there's a combination of incentive programs from different levels of government does that correct?
Johanna Anderson 20:42
That it's we also have here in Ithaca, we reside within Tompkins, county, and Tompkins County along with the city of Ithaca, and Cornell and a few other villages, they all contribute to the Community Housing Development Fund. And that is available for us to apply to for both rental and for sale housing. Okay,
Atif Qadir 21:05
and you talked a bit about homelessness and how that is an issue for this particular area Ethica as well as across the country. Could you talk a bit more detail about the types of people that I NHS serves, and who you see living or buying units at founders way.
Johanna Anderson 21:24
So the units that founders way, they range in sizes from studios all the way up to four bedrooms, we will be serving income ranges that go from below 30% Ami, all the way up to below 90% Ami, we have certain units set aside for people with developmental disabilities, we have certain units set aside for households that are exiting homelessness. And at this point, predominantly in Ethica, we see a need for one bedroom units. However, as I said earlier, because of the proximity to Beverly J. Martin elementary school, we're anticipating some larger household sizes coming in. But really, we usually do not most of our developments, we get a very nice mix of all age ranges. And people just like living close to downtown, close to restaurants. There's a park right across the street and the amenities are just endless right here, you've got access to bus lines. So there's, I would say that we're going to see quite a bit of demand for this one.
Atif Qadir 22:31
So let's talk a little bit more about the big picture. So the real income of the average office worker has essentially stayed the same since the 1980s, while that of CEOs have increased about 1000 acts, according to a recent study by economists at MIT, from your perspective, what role does this play in the affordable housing crisis?
Johanna Anderson 22:54
You know, when that gap between your income and your expenses when that gets more and more neuro, it forces people to make different decisions about how they are living their lives, if your income is staying the same, but all of your costs are going up every year. It's not just one cost, it's several it is your transportation costs daycare, if you need that food cost and all of those little incremental increases, they add up and really can impact somebody's personal budget. I think what ends up happening is that people have to make some really tough choices. And in our area, what we're starting to see is when if the cost of living is going up in a particular area, people may end up choosing to increase their transportation costs and move further away from where their job is. And that can have really, I think, a negative impact on the community that is seeing the population exit to go elsewhere. So it's definitely a big challenge.
Atif Qadir 24:01
So then in terms of the demand for affordable housing, so it sounds like as this gaps between the haves and the have nots increases, as the buffer between someone's income and their expenses narrows that the demand for affordable housing would increase. I know that it's probably easy to see in the newspaper, for example, like in New York City, Mayor de Blasio had a certain goal to build a certain number of affordable housing units during his term, or that certain number of people pay over the amount that you had mentioned about a 1/3. I think it was the amount in terms of their income in their household living rental expenses. Can you give us a bit more beyond the numbers a little bit more understanding about this demand for affordable housing and the types of people the little bit more perspective so people can get a human touch to that reality?
Johanna Anderson 24:54
Sure, I think you know, the idea of identifying as somebody who is is living in affordable housing. I think that, while I will say it's getting better, I think that there's still a stigma that goes along with it. And it's unfortunate, but I think there's a lot of people out there that don't realize that they actually qualify to live in some of these developments. And really, even in many of our developments, we also have market rate units in there, because we believe that there really should be a true mix of incomes working together.
Johanna Anderson 25:28
And then if you build a development, that is only going to have a certain income band in there, it's just losing that vibrancy. You know, for household sizes, it really depends on how many people are living there. But it could be, you know, anybody making below $40,000 a year, or it also depends on on where you're choosing to live. But some of the residents are retired and living on fixed incomes, we also have some residents that are choosing to have a lower wage career and a lower wage job because they so thoroughly in the work that they're doing.
Atif Qadir 26:11
I think that what's so fascinating is that there are so many reasons for the affordable housing crisis, there are also so many potential solutions as well. So the reason why this crisis is such a big issue in places I understand like Ethica, as well as places where I live, like in northern New Jersey, is that there also isn't enough supply of affordable housing. Could you talk about some of the reasons why there isn't enough places for people to live that are affordable?
Johanna Anderson 26:39
Sure, there's a range of reasons. Here in Ithaca, it's a confined geography, you know, one portion of of the city of buts, the Finger Lakes, Cayuga Lake. And so you obviously have these constraints about where you can build, we've got large cliffs on either side, and that increase your costs. Lately, the cost of construction has gone up, in some cases, a total development cost, once you're under construction can all of a sudden increased by 25%, because of the cost of materials. And because there's also a labor shortage right now, to get people to be working, you've got to pay more than you normally would.
Atif Qadir 27:24
Yeah. That's interesting to some Robert Reich, who's Bill Clinton's Treasury Secretary, has said that the term labor shortage is actually a misnomer. It's actually a pay shortage. And I think that what you described right at the end, that's it in a nutshell. And I think once you're able to see those two perspectives, that there may be a different way of perceiving this particular issue that's feeding into the supply. I know one thing that we considered I missed the the planning commissioner in Hoboken and for us, many of the things that you described are the reality as well in terms of physical geographic or natural constraints, and a cost of land being incredibly high. And the cost of construction, being in some cases 300 $400, a square foot for new construction multifamily. And the solution that the City Planning Commission and the city council took there was to essentially up zone two thirds of the city.
Atif Qadir 28:18
So the city's density was less than it was able to handle. And there was a desire to allow for smaller units has a solution, a market driven solution to affordable housing. So rather than having a townhouse, typical townhouse size, lot, only being able to offer two, or in some cases, three units, having those same properties now offer three or four units. And because of that, that allows potentially the the number of units to go up to the naturally allow some of the take some of the pressure off the rents and the purchase prices for units are there as well. I think that was something that we will see over the next couple of years to see how homeowners and developers react. But we think that that's going to be a pretty positive solution as well. So I completely agree. So the US a we have a long history of racism, particularly against blacks and native people in housing. Could you talk more about the racial disparities that you have seen in housing as someone who's worked in this arena for a number of years in a number of different geographies?
Johanna Anderson 29:22
Sure, to me, it's just devastating to know that some of these practices that we had hoped would be things of the far past. They're existing today. You're
Atif Qadir 29:35
thinking like, like redlining or like steering buyers or like,
Johanna Anderson 29:39
I think that there's still a lot of steering going on. I hear a lot of stories about private landlords where a house will show up and everything is fine over the phone, and then they show up to actually take a look at the unit. And it's, oh, no, I'm sorry, we can't do that. I know that there are still things happening because As you know, it's hard to enforce all of these these different laws, it's hard to have city staffers that can go out and actually do the inspections and make sure that these things are not happening.
Johanna Anderson 30:15
But you know, it's also really challenging to make sure that the people are aware of their rights, and that I think too often in this whole thing, you end up with intimidation, winning out, and then people are just being bullied or intimidated and, and feeling really vulnerable and helpless. And it's sometimes easier, I think, for people to walk away than to stand up and fight and make sure that they are getting into the house that they deserve.
Atif Qadir 30:47
And I think they, what you're describing are some of those things that can live in between and around the law. And it's difficult to legislate for it, I'll give you one example. So the coop system, the cooperative system of housing that exists, it's not that common across the US. But specifically in New York City, it's a very, very common at housing style, this idea that you rather than owning the real property, you own shares in a corporation that owns the whole property, and then you get a lease to essentially live in the unit that you purchase. It's a very kind of nuanced, complicated structure. And the whole origins of this was essentially from the early 1900s, in order for very elite, very expensive apartment buildings in Manhattan, to have a way to prevent particularly Jewish and Eastern European buyers from buying into these buildings that generally did not have people like them. And those systems even exists today.
Atif Qadir 31:44
For example, the first home that I tried to buy in Manhattan was a co op and I got rejected. So if you're gonna imagine if someone like B gets rejected from a co op building, there's likely something else going on. And I think in particular, what is so fascinating is that there was attempts to address this issue of coops, for example, through the Fair Housing Act. But there is an exemption that allows corporations to the exempt and in the fact that a co op is a corporation, they're exempt from jurisdiction from the Department of Justice for Fair Housing Act violations. So there are so many different loopholes like that. And I think more in terms of the intimidation that you had mentioned, I just recently saw in the news case of a black family just moved into a small city. And I believe it was Indiana and a neighbor chose to have a motion detector activated sound that was a gorilla sounds that would play or monkey sounds that would play whenever the person across the street, the black family opened their door or tried to go to their car until if
Johanna Anderson 32:41
they saw that
Atif Qadir 32:42
it was just awful,
Johanna Anderson 32:44
absolutely awful. But I think it is done in myriad ways across the country. And I think it's just incredibly sad.
Atif Qadir 32:55
I think that they're what we're talking about are those things that beyond legislation that remain to be addressed in affordable housing. And I think we talked about entitlements. But could you talk a bit more about things like approvals. For example, I think there's an expression that's commonly heard, not in my backyard, or NIMBY, and then also about, for example, like access to incentives, as you mentioned, a very complicated capital stack for financing your own project.
Johanna Anderson 33:24
So I think, luckily, for us, we are seeing less and less NIMBY as our developments continue, which I'm very grateful for.
Atif Qadir 33:34
Do you think that has something to do with literally how beautiful your projects are? And how well they're done? Is that an element or what are your thoughts?
Johanna Anderson 33:40
Yeah, you know, I'm obviously quite biased. But that is a big thing. For me, I believe, you know, we have a really successful track record. And I think that Well, I know that
Johanna Anderson 33:53
When we build a development, we're not planning to sell, we're in it for the long haul. I mean, these some of these regulatory agreements are lasting over 50 years. And in some cases, in the case of our for sale housing, we have a commitment to make sure that that home maintains its affordability for the next 198 years. So I mean, our organization is really in this for the long haul, and we are managing them. And I think that that goes a long way when our partners, our community, our neighbors, know that if there is an issue, then they can call the organization. And we're just very responsive.
Johanna Anderson 34:33
You know, I think that there's much work to be done with Sony. I think there's also quite a bit to be done when it comes to sustainability and incorporating those kinds of green elements into the design and the systems, especially as you know, climate changes is really quite present and like real and I think the development of our structures that actually has quite an impact. And it could also because of that it could also really be a leader in sustainable building and ongoing designs,
Atif Qadir 35:09
in terms of climate change, is it flooding in particular is the issue with ethic or what how is that manifested in our particular
Johanna Anderson 35:16
area, it is flooding, the water table is quite high. And we do get quite a bit of rainfall. And we have obviously quite a few waterfalls everywhere. And sometimes you get when you when you have these areas that have a denser and denser population and more and more development, you have oftentimes, impermeable surfaces, and there's just no place for the water to go. So that that ends up being an issue. And in any cases, we try to mitigate that we try and we'll incorporate that into the design so that you know, it may be raised up six feet, or so it really just depends.
Atif Qadir 35:53
So you mentioned waterfalls, I have to ask you want to do you have a T shirt that says Ithaca is gorgeous, because that's the t shirt everyone has, right?
Johanna Anderson 36:01
That is that is and now because of fall, I believe it is if the cat is gored just I love it. I know, it is wonderful. But the environment out here is just absolutely beautiful and breathtaking. But with it, there's also comes this, you know, an element that it can really be quite dangerous sometimes. And so we want to make sure because nobody wants to have their house or vehicle flooded or anything like
Atif Qadir 36:32
that, or washed away or anything.
Johanna Anderson 36:34
Exactly. But you know, I think that when you're living on the margins, you don't have the ability to tolerate that level of risk, you know, and really, we always say that, you know, we can make sure that the building is insured and that it's the right way. But we can't make sure that people are carrying renter's insurance, we can't make sure that people are carrying vehicle insurance. And so we're trying to think of ways to be as protective as possible.
Atif Qadir 37:04
And I think what you're describing is that there is this reality that often the areas that are most exposed to climate change are the ones that are the lowest cost to live in. And will likely mean that the people that have the least to lose, or rather the most elusive, the least able to lose are the ones that end up suffering in those situations. I just thought today a major flooding in the Kerala state and Indian it's particularly below the poverty line, fishermen, fishermen, their houses literally getting washed away into rivers. And I'm sure those the ones that don't necessarily have the capacity to figure out an alternate living situation with like, snap of a finger. Exactly. So then I think we were just talking about other countries, are there affordable housing, methods, structures, policies, or other best practices that you think that we in the United States could learn from like, say, for example, like Singapore, I think that 80% of their residents live in affordable housing?
Johanna Anderson 38:08
Sure. For our area, I think that we can learn a lot in the designs that people are using in the Netherlands, similar issues with flooding, and the Dutch have done a wonderful job of navigating and dealing with water for centuries. You know, I think we can all learn a lot from some of these other countries, like us, Singapore, as an example. But you know, if we can remove that stigma, that goes along with saying that I live in affordable housing, and we can really help people to understand that this is just one of many housing options. And you know, if somebody is unable to get into safe market rate housing, this is available at an A level that is affordable to them, and fits within their budget.
Johanna Anderson 38:56
I think that is really, really critical that we just allow everybody to say that it doesn't matter what income level you're at, but you have a home that is affordable to you and your income. That is it doesn't matter what that that but it really is just helping people to understand that you really feel comfortable with what you're paying every month to maintain a structure around you a roof over your head.
Atif Qadir 39:25
I think what's really fascinating is this mindset that we choose to have as a country as Americans, and there's there's two paths, I think that you can go when it comes with housing. I think that we can think of housing as a commodity like milk or lumber or anything else and let it be subjected to huge swings in prices, meaning that the ability to access that becomes very challenging depending on what that price is, and then all the downstream consequences of that or that we choose that Housing is something like public education, where in the United States, every one of us the qualities of our different tones are by district, but everyone has access to a K to 12 education that's paid for by the US government by taxpayers.
Atif Qadir 40:15
And I don't necessarily think that housing needs to be 100% public owned. When I think Berlin actually they just had a recent vote where the city decided to take back control of privately owned affordable housing from some of the largest operators that weren't doing it well, and then take it back over, I don't think you need to go that full extreme. Nor do I think it needs to be that housing is treated like lumber, for example, which went up 2030 40% In the metaphysical quarter. But I think there's something in between the two. And there's this expression about housing as a human right. And that's something that one of the congresspeople Ilan Omar talked about in terms of how do we think differently about housing, given all this experience that you have, and all the on the ground projects that you've worked on? What do you think about that the way that we think of housing as Americans, and how that could potentially be different in the future?
Johanna Anderson 41:07
Well, I think it's really important to know that each one of us have different needs for our homes. And, you know, my home looks very different, I'm sure from your home. And we have to, I think we have to be more accepting of that the fact that there's not a handful of models that will address everybody's needs, we need to make sure that we are allowing for different types of housing to become available, and really encouraging that kind of diversity of housing stock. That, to me is so important. So having these, you know, adjusting the zoning to allow for accessory dwelling units. That's important. That's not to say that everybody in that neighborhood is now going to have an accessory dwelling unit. But instead, you know, that's yet another tool in the toolbox.
Atif Qadir 42:02
Those are also called granny units, right?
Johanna Anderson 42:06
We've also frogs, yeah, all sorts of things. But it's just another resource that we have available to us to address this. Because at this point, sometimes I fear that in certain communities, it's gotten beyond control, and you can no longer address it, and you've just, it's lost. And I think that that's a really dangerous place to be in.
Atif Qadir 42:30
That's a lot for us to think about. But I think there's a lot of positive opportunities and tools that we have to address those issues step by step.
Atif Qadir 42:42
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